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Why are people desperate enough to raid their own communities of basic infrastructure? Guaranteeing access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthca

Why are people desperate enough to raid their own communities of basic infrastructure? Guaranteeing access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare would go a long long way to aligning society’s collective values and interests toward the preservation of its infrastructure.

aeonfox 11mo ago
America needs to reflect on why it's unique amongst first world countries at having third world problems.
- JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
  > America needs to reflect on why it's unique When it’s unique, yes. In the case, metal theft is documented in Australia, Australia, Canada, France, Czechia, the Netherlands and the UK [1]. (To be fair, I’m not seeing any sources credibly auditing prevalence versus occurrence.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft#Notable_metal_thefts_and_law_enforcement_efforts_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft#Notable_metal_thef...
  - aeonfox 11mo ago
    Right. One instance of metal theft in any country is enough to discredit the argument. As someone who lives in Australia, I've seen it show up in the news here just once. And I've spent time in other first world countries including the US, so my opinion doesn't come from a place of ignorance.
    - lostlogin 11mo ago
      If you search, there is a ton about it, and it's a fast growing problem. eg https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/media-releases/news-items/crackdown-on-scrap-metal-theft https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/media-releases/news-items/crac...
      - aeonfox 11mo ago
        I stand corrected. Australia has third-world problems.
    - robocat 11mo ago
      I live in New Zealand and I see or hear of thefts in my old neighbourhood (Woolston). Yet I can't recall anything about the issue on the news. Every bit of reliable information I've had points to Meth users (although many years ago I knew of opiate users trying to get copper). I was recently in New Orleans and had two theft surprises (one positive, one negative: 1: walking in Gretna I noticed an aluminium ladder under a house. You don't leave them visible at home because they get stolen (I presume for metal) 2: an Uber driver pointed out the theft of Aluminium guard rails. Obviously missing at road side. Needed grinders since they were welded infrastructure. I haven't seen much of that level of theft in Christchurch yet.
      - aeonfox 11mo ago
        As a further point of contrast between the US and Oceania, the kind of copper theft happening in the OP are disabling communications systems: > From January to June of this year, 9,770 incidents of intentional theft or sabotage on communications networks were reported, according to the Internet & Television Association, a trade group known as NCTA. That is nearly double the number reported in the prior six-month period. The attacks disrupted service for more than eight million customers. > The cut lines have disrupted 911 emergency calls and internet and landline services, shut down at least one school and left whole city blocks in the dark. ... and to contrast, here in Australia, the mobile networks hadn't properly QAed their production deployment and access to emergency services causing an outage for 13-hours, likely causing people to die. The response was immediately establishing an inquiry and enacting new laws within 31 days of the incident. https://ia.acs.org.au/article/2025/-no-excuses--as-optus-upgrade-blamed-for-multiple-deaths.html https://ia.acs.org.au/article/2025/-no-excuses--as-optus-upg... https://www.acma.gov.au/articles/2025-10/acma-strengthens-industry-triple-zero-rules https://www.acma.gov.au/articles/2025-10/acma-strengthens-in... https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Environment_and_Communications/TripleZero48P https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Sen... In the past few years I've seen so many instances of day-light smash and grabs happening in the US in broad daylight filling my feeds. I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop – will that wave of criminality reach here? Certainly there's been an significant uptick of knife crime in Australia, people with mental health issues shooting cops and stabbing civilians, and the housing crisis is really causing problems around homelessness, but even still, Australia has nothing on the brazenness and scale of what is happening in the US. So when I say that third world problems are affecting the US, I refer to this broader situation.
- sltkr 11mo ago
  I didn't do a quantative analysis (I bet neither did you), but copper theft happens everywhere: - https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/tonnenweise-kupferklau-am-schemelsbergtunnel-weinsberg-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/t... - https://www.ladepeche.fr/2025/11/14/info-la-depeche-explosive-serie-de-vols-de-cuivre-21-km-de-cables-derobes-orange-accuse-211-000-eur-de-pertes-13050050.php https://www.ladepeche.fr/2025/11/14/info-la-depeche-explosiv... - https://nos.nl/artikel/2591857-na-koperdiefstal-in-veenhuizen-worden-regenpijpen-vervangen-door-replica-s https://nos.nl/artikel/2591857-na-koperdiefstal-in-veenhuize...
  - aeonfox 11mo ago
    Basically a repeat of the sibling comment, so I won't repeat my reply.
    - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
      Not applicable? I explicitly called out that Wikipedia doesn’t provide any sense around frequency. The comment you’re replying to here does.
      - aeonfox 11mo ago
        I just took them on their word. > I didn't do a quantative analysis And these seem like single data points, one each for 3 different countries, not really giving a sense of frequency. So I'm not sure what you mean.
        JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
        > not really giving a sense of frequency Two of their sources are from this month, all three are from this year.
        aeonfox 11mo ago
        So three instances in the EU for the year. I suppose that's something. All I know is I don't see people with angle grinders taking down local infrastructure in Australia. Maybe if we matched in population it would be the same? I don't know. But I'm checked out of this argument, because I'm certain anyone who's lived in the US and, say, comes to Australia, would recognise the stark difference in social outcomes and crime levels. But why reflect on that at all? It's far easier to quibble over minutiae.
- raggles 11mo ago
  Not just America. People are stealing copper in very rural areas in my country; in many cases the price they get is hardly paying for the petrol to drive there. We have a whole team now in my company dedicated to repairing damage from copper theft, it's rampant.
  - aeonfox 11mo ago
    Very different vibe to people just doing this at scale on the side of suburban streets.
JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> Why are people desperate enough to raid their own communities of basic infrastructure? At least in Arizona, it’s a lot of meth addicts. (Friend works in the space, albeit around water versus electrical infrastructure.)
stebalien 11mo ago
We do need to provide better services, but that's not going to solve this issue. The vast majority of people struggling to make ends meet don't stoop to destroying public infrastructure. Only the true anti-social assholes go there.
- bongodongobob 11mo ago
  This is the kind of attitude that gets us here. "Bad people don't deserve help or services. This is reserved for the morally pure." Or even more simply "Criminals don't deserve help. Lock em up and forget about em." We are still destroying lives over fucking weed. It's all connected.
  - UberFly 11mo ago
    Your unrelated rant doesn't even reflect what the previous commenter wrote.
- Nextgrid 11mo ago
  But the worse off people are the more likely some of them are to say "fuck it" and move to the criminal side.
vondur 11mo ago
These are thieves looking for a quick buck. They aren’t desperately poor.
- JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
  > They aren’t desperately poor Some of them are. The ones using “hard hats and vests to disguise themselves” and “utilizing more-professional tools, such as battery-operated saws” probably aren’t.
  - khannn 11mo ago
    Addicts are known to carry around battery powered angle grinders. I'm seeing them starting at $35. Interestingly enough, bike locks that are marketed as being angle grinder proof seem to start around $300. My state regulates selling copper and requires a license for individuals but exempts electricians lmao.
andy99 11mo ago
Is this what they call “victim blaming”? Why does it have to be society’s fault and not the people stealing the copper? If we have litter and excrement all over the streets, do we blame ourselves instead of the people littering? Is every “this is why we can’t have nice things” situation actually our own fault? How about holding people accountable for their actions?
- Fogest 11mo ago
  Unfortunately even when these people who are a drain on society get caught, they often are treated like a victim and get very light sentences (or even none at all). We see this with shoplifting too. When the consequences are virtually eliminated, this kind of crime becomes pretty lucrative. Especially if you're homeless or a drug addict, you the consequence of spending maybe a single night in jail is pretty much a non-issue. And fines given are absolutely useless because they aren't paid, and they have no assets to take to pay them. I'm honestly a bit tired of nothing productive being done about drug addiction. And I am pretty convinced programs like safe injection sites are pushed by NGO's because they make a lot of money off them. A lot of the information suggesting they are useful is pushed by the same groups making major money off running them.
bongodongobob 11mo ago
Look at the comments. In the US, we aren't interested in fixing systemic issues. We know what causes crime but it's believed that punishment and retribution is the answer even though it's not at all true.
- baiac 11mo ago
  The amount of copper thieves is finite. The fact that this keeps happening means that, if anything, there isn't enough retribution.
  - defrost 11mo ago
    That's one interpretation, sure. Mind you the US already has globally record setting levels of retribution in the form of imprisonment, death penalties, broken justice system etc. Perhaps it's worth looking at other G20 countries with lower crime rates, less economic disparity, police that carry minimal weaponry, etc. and ask how is they appear to be doing better.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
  - mcphage 11mo ago
    > The amount of copper thieves is finite. If that were true, we could simply wait for them to all die out and be done with the problem for good. And since that won’t work, this claim can be dismissed.
    - baiac 11mo ago
      [flagged]
      - mcphage 11mo ago
        However now we have more murderers, which is one of those “one step forward, two steps back” things.
marcusverus 11mo ago
Th US spends >$30K per year on HUD, medicaid, and food stamps for every person whose household income poverty line. The idea that this issue is somehow evidence of the need for more welfare is only possible if you don't have any idea how much we're already spending on welfare. This low-effort, blindly empathetic mindset of "oh those poor criminals" will be the death of our civilization.
swatcoder 11mo ago
Why assume it's driven by desperation rather than alienation? It doesn't take desperation to "raid [one]'s own community of basic infrastructure" -- the news shows rich and very un-desperate people doing that right in the open every day, both with and without the protection of the law. What it does take is people just not caring about each other very much. It would indeed be great to have a society where even the worst off could be safe and secure, but that seems orthogonal to the problem of why people take from others like this. This is not stealing bread for the day's meal.
jandrewrogers 11mo ago
The vast majority of this is ordinary theft, not desperation. I've been acquainted in the past with many people who engaged in this type of crime. Perception is that it is relatively low-risk. It was mostly just a side hustle to pay for beer or drugs, people weren't doing it to put food on the table. There has been a strong underground market for stolen "scrap" metal for as long as I've been alive. It isn't just copper or catalytic converters. Theft of agricultural irrigation piping is sporadically fashionable, for example.
- paleotrope 11mo ago
  Nobody in the US needs to steal for food. Let go of that stupid belief.
  - jandrewrogers 11mo ago
    I struggle to understand where I stated people in the US need to steal for food.
Nextgrid 11mo ago
> Guaranteeing access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare But this would mean rich people would be less rich and have one less yacht; while currently they happily enjoy the extra yacht; copper theft isn't an issue for them because that's mostly poor people stealing from other poor people.

aeonfox 11mo ago

America needs to reflect on why it's unique amongst first world countries at having third world problems.

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> America needs to reflect on why it's unique When it’s unique, yes. In the case, metal theft is documented in Australia, Australia, Canada, France, Czechia, the Netherlands and the UK [1]. (To be fair, I’m not seeing any sources credibly auditing prevalence versus occurrence.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft#Notable_metal_thefts_and_law_enforcement_efforts_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft#Notable_metal_thef...
- aeonfox 11mo ago
  Right. One instance of metal theft in any country is enough to discredit the argument. As someone who lives in Australia, I've seen it show up in the news here just once. And I've spent time in other first world countries including the US, so my opinion doesn't come from a place of ignorance.
  - lostlogin 11mo ago
    If you search, there is a ton about it, and it's a fast growing problem. eg https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/media-releases/news-items/crackdown-on-scrap-metal-theft https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/media-releases/news-items/crac...
    - aeonfox 11mo ago
      I stand corrected. Australia has third-world problems.
  - robocat 11mo ago
    I live in New Zealand and I see or hear of thefts in my old neighbourhood (Woolston). Yet I can't recall anything about the issue on the news. Every bit of reliable information I've had points to Meth users (although many years ago I knew of opiate users trying to get copper). I was recently in New Orleans and had two theft surprises (one positive, one negative: 1: walking in Gretna I noticed an aluminium ladder under a house. You don't leave them visible at home because they get stolen (I presume for metal) 2: an Uber driver pointed out the theft of Aluminium guard rails. Obviously missing at road side. Needed grinders since they were welded infrastructure. I haven't seen much of that level of theft in Christchurch yet.
    - aeonfox 11mo ago
      As a further point of contrast between the US and Oceania, the kind of copper theft happening in the OP are disabling communications systems: > From January to June of this year, 9,770 incidents of intentional theft or sabotage on communications networks were reported, according to the Internet & Television Association, a trade group known as NCTA. That is nearly double the number reported in the prior six-month period. The attacks disrupted service for more than eight million customers. > The cut lines have disrupted 911 emergency calls and internet and landline services, shut down at least one school and left whole city blocks in the dark. ... and to contrast, here in Australia, the mobile networks hadn't properly QAed their production deployment and access to emergency services causing an outage for 13-hours, likely causing people to die. The response was immediately establishing an inquiry and enacting new laws within 31 days of the incident. https://ia.acs.org.au/article/2025/-no-excuses--as-optus-upgrade-blamed-for-multiple-deaths.html https://ia.acs.org.au/article/2025/-no-excuses--as-optus-upg... https://www.acma.gov.au/articles/2025-10/acma-strengthens-industry-triple-zero-rules https://www.acma.gov.au/articles/2025-10/acma-strengthens-in... https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Environment_and_Communications/TripleZero48P https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Sen... In the past few years I've seen so many instances of day-light smash and grabs happening in the US in broad daylight filling my feeds. I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop – will that wave of criminality reach here? Certainly there's been an significant uptick of knife crime in Australia, people with mental health issues shooting cops and stabbing civilians, and the housing crisis is really causing problems around homelessness, but even still, Australia has nothing on the brazenness and scale of what is happening in the US. So when I say that third world problems are affecting the US, I refer to this broader situation.
sltkr 11mo ago
I didn't do a quantative analysis (I bet neither did you), but copper theft happens everywhere: - https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/tonnenweise-kupferklau-am-schemelsbergtunnel-weinsberg-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/t... - https://www.ladepeche.fr/2025/11/14/info-la-depeche-explosive-serie-de-vols-de-cuivre-21-km-de-cables-derobes-orange-accuse-211-000-eur-de-pertes-13050050.php https://www.ladepeche.fr/2025/11/14/info-la-depeche-explosiv... - https://nos.nl/artikel/2591857-na-koperdiefstal-in-veenhuizen-worden-regenpijpen-vervangen-door-replica-s https://nos.nl/artikel/2591857-na-koperdiefstal-in-veenhuize...
- aeonfox 11mo ago
  Basically a repeat of the sibling comment, so I won't repeat my reply.
  - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
    Not applicable? I explicitly called out that Wikipedia doesn’t provide any sense around frequency. The comment you’re replying to here does.
    - aeonfox 11mo ago
      I just took them on their word. > I didn't do a quantative analysis And these seem like single data points, one each for 3 different countries, not really giving a sense of frequency. So I'm not sure what you mean.
      - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
        > not really giving a sense of frequency Two of their sources are from this month, all three are from this year.
        aeonfox 11mo ago
        So three instances in the EU for the year. I suppose that's something. All I know is I don't see people with angle grinders taking down local infrastructure in Australia. Maybe if we matched in population it would be the same? I don't know. But I'm checked out of this argument, because I'm certain anyone who's lived in the US and, say, comes to Australia, would recognise the stark difference in social outcomes and crime levels. But why reflect on that at all? It's far easier to quibble over minutiae.
raggles 11mo ago
Not just America. People are stealing copper in very rural areas in my country; in many cases the price they get is hardly paying for the petrol to drive there. We have a whole team now in my company dedicated to repairing damage from copper theft, it's rampant.
- aeonfox 11mo ago
  Very different vibe to people just doing this at scale on the side of suburban streets.

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago

> Why are people desperate enough to raid their own communities of basic infrastructure? At least in Arizona, it’s a lot of meth addicts. (Friend works in the space, albeit around water versus electrical infrastructure.)

stebalien 11mo ago

We do need to provide better services, but that's not going to solve this issue. The vast majority of people struggling to make ends meet don't stoop to destroying public infrastructure. Only the true anti-social assholes go there.

bongodongobob 11mo ago
This is the kind of attitude that gets us here. "Bad people don't deserve help or services. This is reserved for the morally pure." Or even more simply "Criminals don't deserve help. Lock em up and forget about em." We are still destroying lives over fucking weed. It's all connected.
- UberFly 11mo ago
  Your unrelated rant doesn't even reflect what the previous commenter wrote.
Nextgrid 11mo ago
But the worse off people are the more likely some of them are to say "fuck it" and move to the criminal side.

vondur 11mo ago

These are thieves looking for a quick buck. They aren’t desperately poor.

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> They aren’t desperately poor Some of them are. The ones using “hard hats and vests to disguise themselves” and “utilizing more-professional tools, such as battery-operated saws” probably aren’t.
- khannn 11mo ago
  Addicts are known to carry around battery powered angle grinders. I'm seeing them starting at $35. Interestingly enough, bike locks that are marketed as being angle grinder proof seem to start around $300. My state regulates selling copper and requires a license for individuals but exempts electricians lmao.

andy99 11mo ago

Is this what they call “victim blaming”? Why does it have to be society’s fault and not the people stealing the copper? If we have litter and excrement all over the streets, do we blame ourselves instead of the people littering? Is every “this is why we can’t have nice things” situation actually our own fault? How about holding people accountable for their actions?

Fogest 11mo ago
Unfortunately even when these people who are a drain on society get caught, they often are treated like a victim and get very light sentences (or even none at all). We see this with shoplifting too. When the consequences are virtually eliminated, this kind of crime becomes pretty lucrative. Especially if you're homeless or a drug addict, you the consequence of spending maybe a single night in jail is pretty much a non-issue. And fines given are absolutely useless because they aren't paid, and they have no assets to take to pay them. I'm honestly a bit tired of nothing productive being done about drug addiction. And I am pretty convinced programs like safe injection sites are pushed by NGO's because they make a lot of money off them. A lot of the information suggesting they are useful is pushed by the same groups making major money off running them.

bongodongobob 11mo ago

Look at the comments. In the US, we aren't interested in fixing systemic issues. We know what causes crime but it's believed that punishment and retribution is the answer even though it's not at all true.

baiac 11mo ago
The amount of copper thieves is finite. The fact that this keeps happening means that, if anything, there isn't enough retribution.
- defrost 11mo ago
  That's one interpretation, sure. Mind you the US already has globally record setting levels of retribution in the form of imprisonment, death penalties, broken justice system etc. Perhaps it's worth looking at other G20 countries with lower crime rates, less economic disparity, police that carry minimal weaponry, etc. and ask how is they appear to be doing better.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
- mcphage 11mo ago
  > The amount of copper thieves is finite. If that were true, we could simply wait for them to all die out and be done with the problem for good. And since that won’t work, this claim can be dismissed.
  - baiac 11mo ago
    [flagged]
    - mcphage 11mo ago
      However now we have more murderers, which is one of those “one step forward, two steps back” things.

marcusverus 11mo ago

Th US spends >$30K per year on HUD, medicaid, and food stamps for every person whose household income poverty line. The idea that this issue is somehow evidence of the need for more welfare is only possible if you don't have any idea how much we're already spending on welfare. This low-effort, blindly empathetic mindset of "oh those poor criminals" will be the death of our civilization.

swatcoder 11mo ago

Why assume it's driven by desperation rather than alienation? It doesn't take desperation to "raid [one]'s own community of basic infrastructure" -- the news shows rich and very un-desperate people doing that right in the open every day, both with and without the protection of the law. What it does take is people just not caring about each other very much. It would indeed be great to have a society where even the worst off could be safe and secure, but that seems orthogonal to the problem of why people take from others like this. This is not stealing bread for the day's meal.

jandrewrogers 11mo ago

The vast majority of this is ordinary theft, not desperation. I've been acquainted in the past with many people who engaged in this type of crime. Perception is that it is relatively low-risk. It was mostly just a side hustle to pay for beer or drugs, people weren't doing it to put food on the table. There has been a strong underground market for stolen "scrap" metal for as long as I've been alive. It isn't just copper or catalytic converters. Theft of agricultural irrigation piping is sporadically fashionable, for example.

paleotrope 11mo ago
Nobody in the US needs to steal for food. Let go of that stupid belief.
- jandrewrogers 11mo ago
  I struggle to understand where I stated people in the US need to steal for food.

Nextgrid 11mo ago

> Guaranteeing access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare But this would mean rich people would be less rich and have one less yacht; while currently they happily enjoy the extra yacht; copper theft isn't an issue for them because that's mostly poor people stealing from other poor people.