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Quebec to ban public prayer in sweeping new secularism law
- akerl_ 11mo agoUnder this law, if my family sets up a picnic at a local park and we pray before our meal, have we violated the law?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- bdcravens 11mo agoDepends on whether they define that as "collective religious practices".
- 7bit 11mo agoStop spreading uncertainty and just read the aeticle. Your picnic is not communal prayer. And it's neither of public unless you invite everyone in the park around you to take a bite. And even then, your prayer isn't the reason for the gathering, so no, you're in no risk to violate the law.
- Yossarrian22 11mo agoI'm not sure about that, I went and read the bill[0], the law states: “2. No public road, within the meaning of the third paragraph of section 66 of the Municipal Powers Act (chapter C-47.1), or public park may be used for the purposes of collective religious practice unless a municipality authorizes, exceptionally and on a case-by-case basis, such a use in its public domain by resolution of the municipal council. For the purposes of this Act, “religious practice” has the meaning assigned by section 10.1 of the Act respecting the laicity of the State (chapter L-0.3)." But going and reading the older Act respecting the laicity of the State[1] it doesn't actually have a section 10.1, so I'm not sure what that means. [0] https://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/projet-loi-9-43-2.html https://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/travaux-parlementaires/projets-l... [1]https://www.legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/document/lc/L-0.3?langCont=en https://www.legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/document/lc/L-0.3?lang...
- akerl_ 11mo agoI did read the article, and it doesn’t define communal. Public is based on where it happens, not who I invite to participate.
- xenospn 11mo agoThis is fantastic. Religion is a personal thing - and those who are unaffiliated should not have to walk on eggshells to appease those who choose to practice in public.
- gruez 11mo ago>and those who are unaffiliated should not have to walk on eggshells to appease those who choose to practice in public. How does praying in public cause others to "walk on eggshells"?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- sgarland 11mo agoIf you want to pray before your meal, that doesn’t affect me. If we’re eating together and you want to pray before your meal, I can stay respectfully silent for 30 seconds, because it’s not that much to ask. If you insist I join you in prayer, or that I must kneel, etc. then yes, we have a problem. I have never found the latter case to exist.
- xenospn 11mo agoRemember - tolerance only goes one way. They will not accommodate you.
- baiac 11mo ago[flagged]
- AnimalMuppet 11mo agoDon't vaguepost. What, in your view, is the real issue?
- kryogen1c 11mo ago> “It’s shocking to see people blocking traffic, taking possession of the public space without a permit, without warning, and then turning our streets, our parks, our public squares into places of worship,” said Roberge. It is fucking insane that the response to people blocking traffic in prayer is to outlaw prayer. Secularism is giving equal treatment to all religions; this isn't Secularism, this is a thinly veiled, fanatical, Crusade against religion.
- politelemon 11mo agoA quick search of the definition of secularism shows that it's the opposite of what you're saying.
- yardie 11mo ago> It also bans communal prayer on public roads and in parks, with the threat of fines of C$1,125 for groups in contravention of the prohibition. I'm a stoopid American but I thought Canadians enjoyed freedom of speech. Since they remind us they have Charter that protects speech. I'd like to know how they differentiate between public speaking and public prayer?
- gruez 11mo ago>I'm a stoopid American but I thought Canadians enjoyed freedom of speech. Since they remind us they have Charter that protects speech. American levels of free speech is unrivaled, so to expect it to apply to other liberal democracies with "free speech" is indeed "stoopid American" thinking.
- legitster 11mo agoQuébécois and Canadians only loosely associate with each other.
- vorpalhex 11mo agoSince this contravenes the UHDR which Canada does subscribe to, it likely won't survive court scrutiny. > Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
- simonsarris 11mo agoPossibly as an American you haven't seen the prayer protests blocking streets in Montreal and elsewhere yet. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1n3608j/leslie_roberts_quebec_calls_street_prayer_what_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1n3608j/leslie_robe... https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1jfbsvl/warmington_folks_are_free_to_pray_but_should_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1jfbsvl/warmington_... Note the comments. It is disingenuous of The Guardian to run an article without posting photos of what everyone is annoyed enough about to make new laws regarding.
- glimshe 11mo agoThis reminds us that America isn't the only place with ridiculous and problematic laws despite getting all the attention. I don't pray in public or private, but I think others should have the right to do so.
- collinmcnulty 11mo ago“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges” It’s likewise a dirty trick to target a harmless cultural practice for a disfavored group and ban it for “everyone”.
- legitster 11mo ago> Quebec’s secularism minister, Jean-François Roberge, said the controversial new provisions were the latest steps in a province working towards full secularization. He criticized previous accommodations by post-secondary institutions, including prayer rooms, telling reporters the schools “are not temples or churches or those kinds of places”. The ban on public prayer comes after the group Montreal4Palestine organized Sunday protests outside the city’s Notre-Dame Basilica that included prayers. > The province will also limit the offering of kosher and halal meals in public institutions. “We think that when the state is neutral, Quebecers are free,” said Roberge, rejecting allegations the law disproportionately affects minorities. “We have the same rules applying to everyone,” he said. TIL: Quebec has a secularization minister. This is all pretty horrific stuff. Does accommodating someone's diet really offend you this much? This is squarely an anti-diversity and anti-inclusion movement with a scoundrel's veneer of equality.
- megamorf 11mo agoWhy is that horrific? To me it sounds like something desirable. Religion is a personal matter, as such it should not infringe on public spaces.
- legitster 11mo agoThe proposals go far beyond that - restrictions on clothing and jewelry and even cafeterias making food options available.
- xenospn 11mo agoAs far as this is - it’s not far enough.
- AnimalMuppet 11mo agoLet's say I have a religion that, as part of practicing it, restricts my diet. If I try to make you - a non-practitioner - eat that diet, then your reply makes sense. It's a personal matter; I don't get to force it on you or anyone else. But if you try to remove the option of me being able to get food that fits my diet out in public? Don't try to justify that by saying "religion is a personal matter". That's an absurd rationale.
- Simulacra 11mo agoI think the concept of banning prayer in public is bonkers, but I see the logic in banning non permited, short notice prayer in the middle of the street that blocks traffic. If people want to have a large gathering in the park to pray, they should, but with the permit because your occupying a large portion of a public space. But as it pertains to suddenly kneeling in traffic and praying, I'm in full agreement. That should not happen. I'm open to people praying wherever they want, but it should not and it cannot arbitrarily inconvenience others specifically to block a road. Why can't they step across to the sidewalk? Why must they be in the center of the road. This is not a rare occurrence, but I think it's the heart of what is being addressed. Even though they may be going at it badly.
- hyperpape 11mo agoI agree that there is no right to arbitrarily block traffic for prayer. But this does not require a ban on public prayer, it requires a law saying that one must allow traffic to flow (which I suspect already exists), and a clarification that prayer is not an exception. Prayer need not be specifically targeted more than board games, or bike protests, or just parking in the middle of the street.
- warmedcookie 11mo agoIs a prayer ban really needed here? Seems like a lack of enforcing existing laws, such as blocking traffic, is the issue here. Seeing people pray in public is weird to me, but if they aren't obstructing, what's the harm? In the US, we have a "See you at the pole" prayer event every year where people gather around American flag poles and pray, which seems like a nice way to gather together as a community to meditate and reflect.