3 ms·

> "... so you're saying they wrote bad code on purpose?" Depends how you define "one purpose". I feel like I could polish any code to perfection forever. But t

by viraptor 11mo ago

> "... so you're saying they wrote bad code on purpose?" Depends how you define "one purpose". I feel like I could polish any code to perfection forever. But the threshold of bad is going to be very murky. Is it still bad after 5min? After 30? After an hour? After a day? Wherever you think is the right effort/benefit threshold, it will turn out to be different in a few weeks. And you'll find people who think it's too fancy and people who think it's bad. Rarely is there objectively bad code. (Yeah, sometimes there is)

pxc 11mo ago
> Wherever you think is the right effort/benefit threshold, it will turn out to be different in a few weeks. Very true. And experiencing this has absolutely been a useful lesson to me. I remember feeling pained over some code I wanted to write in a more robust and principled way in front of a big deadline, and after a bit of friendly push and pull with my manager, I agreed to console myself by throwing in some TODOs and FIXMEs in the comments instead of getting carried away overengineering or burning rubber just beautifying my style. I remember this ritual feeling painful at the time, though it helped me cross the finish line sooner. A few months later, it was clear that ~80% of that code would be good enough for the next year or so— by which time other parts of the application would have evolved as well. I even ended up glad I'd deferred a few of those changes just so the small refactors could be informed by things we'd learned in the meantime. Sometimes it goes the other way, or course! Many times I've been glad for some extra care I put in early, or regretful about some I didn't. But you're right that that balance always seems to change in retrospect, one way or the other.
pdimitar 11mo ago
> I feel like I could polish any code to perfection forever. Then you know what to work on to become an even better engineer. My recursive function for improving code has clear exit conditions. One of them indeed includes aggressive timeboxing, so on that point we're aligned. I feel you are trying to make an argument against better code. I get it, there are very fussy programmers out there who can indeed polish stuff until the heat death of the Universe (and still be unhappy) but bringing up extremes is not very interesting in a discussion IMO. > Is it still bad after 5min? After 30? After an hour? After a day? Generally, time spent on code has near-zero correlation with the quality you'll get. That correlation only becomes stronger when you have a lot of trust in the person writing the code (including yourself). As above, don't try to make managers look like the reasonable people. I've met some and I adored them but the 99% are egotistical snowflakes that will fire you the first time you say "no". --- Nobody is saying "accommodate the insufferable nerds and give them two weeks to do what junior Joe will do in 2 hours and it'll be pretty good" here in this entire thread. People are saying "maybe we the programmers should have SOME power in some decision-making as well". I am OK with my influence being somewhere between 10-15%; that's expected, I am neither a manager nor a financial stakeholder. What I am not OK with is when that number is 0-1% and sadly that has been the norm during my consulting and contracting period. And it's the main reason due to which I am trying hard to end this period right now and settle somewhere).

pxc 11mo ago

> Wherever you think is the right effort/benefit threshold, it will turn out to be different in a few weeks. Very true. And experiencing this has absolutely been a useful lesson to me. I remember feeling pained over some code I wanted to write in a more robust and principled way in front of a big deadline, and after a bit of friendly push and pull with my manager, I agreed to console myself by throwing in some TODOs and FIXMEs in the comments instead of getting carried away overengineering or burning rubber just beautifying my style. I remember this ritual feeling painful at the time, though it helped me cross the finish line sooner. A few months later, it was clear that ~80% of that code would be good enough for the next year or so— by which time other parts of the application would have evolved as well. I even ended up glad I'd deferred a few of those changes just so the small refactors could be informed by things we'd learned in the meantime. Sometimes it goes the other way, or course! Many times I've been glad for some extra care I put in early, or regretful about some I didn't. But you're right that that balance always seems to change in retrospect, one way or the other.

pdimitar 11mo ago

> I feel like I could polish any code to perfection forever. Then you know what to work on to become an even better engineer. My recursive function for improving code has clear exit conditions. One of them indeed includes aggressive timeboxing, so on that point we're aligned. I feel you are trying to make an argument against better code. I get it, there are very fussy programmers out there who can indeed polish stuff until the heat death of the Universe (and still be unhappy) but bringing up extremes is not very interesting in a discussion IMO. > Is it still bad after 5min? After 30? After an hour? After a day? Generally, time spent on code has near-zero correlation with the quality you'll get. That correlation only becomes stronger when you have a lot of trust in the person writing the code (including yourself). As above, don't try to make managers look like the reasonable people. I've met some and I adored them but the 99% are egotistical snowflakes that will fire you the first time you say "no". --- Nobody is saying "accommodate the insufferable nerds and give them two weeks to do what junior Joe will do in 2 hours and it'll be pretty good" here in this entire thread. People are saying "maybe we the programmers should have SOME power in some decision-making as well". I am OK with my influence being somewhere between 10-15%; that's expected, I am neither a manager nor a financial stakeholder. What I am not OK with is when that number is 0-1% and sadly that has been the norm during my consulting and contracting period. And it's the main reason due to which I am trying hard to end this period right now and settle somewhere).