3 ms·

OTOH it's nice to have an alternative client. If E2EE messenger system is going to lock itself down hard, trying to "protect" itself from the user even harder t

by TeMPOraL 11mo ago

OTOH it's nice to have an alternative client. If E2EE messenger system is going to lock itself down hard, trying to "protect" itself from the user even harder than third party adversaries, then I personally see no point - might as well use Whatsapp. I miss the times IM software respected, or at least didn't fight hard to defeat, the end-user's freedom to computing on their own device, which includes viewing and sending messages through whatever interface they see fit, including indirectly as part of a script/automation. But that was all before E2EE era, hell, before mobile dominance.

godelski 11mo ago
> might as well use Whatsapp. - still scrapes metadata - run by company who's entire objective is to profile you Stop being so ridiculous. You can criticize Signal (and there's plenty to critique) but that's just silly. What, should we also just use telegram where E2EE is off by default? You know signal is open source, right? That's why Molly exists. They can run their own servers too. Now I wish you could do both. Talk in both signal and the decentralized molly servers. I wish signal had a mesh like feature since it's way harder to snoop on conversations if you have to be physically near. I even wish Signal made the signal sticker site accessible from inside the app. There's tons of things they should do but let's not pretend that just because they're not perfect that we should use apps from a company whose motto might as well be "be evil".
- prmoustache 11mo ago
  > What, should we also just use telegram where E2EE is off by default? There are plenty of others, all with their pros and cons. Ultimately,the network effect is usually the hardest parameter to overcome. Ironically, the only person who mentionned wanting to use signal instead of whatsapp in my network circle is my 71y old mother.
  - zetsurin 11mo ago
    You should listen to your mother. edit: lol, i assumed you were the OP. ignore me
- TeMPOraL 11mo ago
  > - still scrapes metadata > - run by company who's entire objective is to profile you And? Pick your poison. Being profiled by Meta isn't high enough on my threat board to be worth switching to E2EE as a countermeasure; in fact, I only use E2EE because Meta forced it on me with Whatsapp (new network effects) and by enabling it in Messenger (old network effects). But that's besides the point. The point is, I did not expect such an alignment of outcomes between user-hostile corporations and grassroots OSS developers, as both fight to saturate the IM space with network effects-driven apps that disenfranchise end users "because security". I imagine Signal is also more than happy about remote attestation and upcoming Android developer verification? All more ways to protect the integrity of the network and ensure the user isn't accidentally stripping E2EE by doing something silly like perusing their messages in ways not prescribed by the developer? > What, should we also just use telegram where E2EE is off by default? I don't like it because it made other choices that led to their larger network being infested with scammers and all kinds of shady types, but at least the client itself doesn't suck :).
  - seg_lol 11mo ago
    You can't send messages on WhatsApp w/o giving Meta read access to all of your contacts. Nice of you to give up your friends.
  - godelski 11mo ago
    You're being pretty disingenuous and we've talked enough over the years for me to know you know you are being too. So why? > I imagine Signal is also more than happy about remote attestation and upcoming Android developer verification? No, why would you think so? They were very against the Europe encryption issue[0]. You can also go check Meredith's Twitter[1] or Moxie before her. Their stance on things have been consistent and clear. But does Signal comply with government warrants? Yes, absolutely. But they don't get many requests because they designed their program to assume Signal is an adversary to the user[2] > I don't like it because it made other choices that led to their larger network being infested with scammers and all kinds of shady types, but at least the client itself doesn't suck :). Does it? Or have you made an assumption? I get a spam messenger on Signal maybe twice a year. Over SMS about 10 times a week (though a bit more than half are auto blocked), over phone I get at least 5 calls a week but sometimes I get that in a day, over WhatsApp I get a few a month. So I don't really buy your argument, but I'm only a sample size of one. But I also know there's no technical reason for your argument either. I'm also pretty sure we've had this conversation in the past, so what's up? You're one of the most active HN users[3], you're easy to remember. [0] https://signal.org/blog/uk-online-safety-bill/ https://signal.org/blog/uk-online-safety-bill/ [1] https://x.com/mer__edith https://x.com/mer__edith [2] https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/ [3] For anyone interested https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders

godelski 11mo ago

> might as well use Whatsapp. - still scrapes metadata - run by company who's entire objective is to profile you Stop being so ridiculous. You can criticize Signal (and there's plenty to critique) but that's just silly. What, should we also just use telegram where E2EE is off by default? You know signal is open source, right? That's why Molly exists. They can run their own servers too. Now I wish you could do both. Talk in both signal and the decentralized molly servers. I wish signal had a mesh like feature since it's way harder to snoop on conversations if you have to be physically near. I even wish Signal made the signal sticker site accessible from inside the app. There's tons of things they should do but let's not pretend that just because they're not perfect that we should use apps from a company whose motto might as well be "be evil".

prmoustache 11mo ago
> What, should we also just use telegram where E2EE is off by default? There are plenty of others, all with their pros and cons. Ultimately,the network effect is usually the hardest parameter to overcome. Ironically, the only person who mentionned wanting to use signal instead of whatsapp in my network circle is my 71y old mother.
- zetsurin 11mo ago
  You should listen to your mother. edit: lol, i assumed you were the OP. ignore me
TeMPOraL 11mo ago
> - still scrapes metadata > - run by company who's entire objective is to profile you And? Pick your poison. Being profiled by Meta isn't high enough on my threat board to be worth switching to E2EE as a countermeasure; in fact, I only use E2EE because Meta forced it on me with Whatsapp (new network effects) and by enabling it in Messenger (old network effects). But that's besides the point. The point is, I did not expect such an alignment of outcomes between user-hostile corporations and grassroots OSS developers, as both fight to saturate the IM space with network effects-driven apps that disenfranchise end users "because security". I imagine Signal is also more than happy about remote attestation and upcoming Android developer verification? All more ways to protect the integrity of the network and ensure the user isn't accidentally stripping E2EE by doing something silly like perusing their messages in ways not prescribed by the developer? > What, should we also just use telegram where E2EE is off by default? I don't like it because it made other choices that led to their larger network being infested with scammers and all kinds of shady types, but at least the client itself doesn't suck :).
- seg_lol 11mo ago
  You can't send messages on WhatsApp w/o giving Meta read access to all of your contacts. Nice of you to give up your friends.
- godelski 11mo ago
  You're being pretty disingenuous and we've talked enough over the years for me to know you know you are being too. So why? > I imagine Signal is also more than happy about remote attestation and upcoming Android developer verification? No, why would you think so? They were very against the Europe encryption issue[0]. You can also go check Meredith's Twitter[1] or Moxie before her. Their stance on things have been consistent and clear. But does Signal comply with government warrants? Yes, absolutely. But they don't get many requests because they designed their program to assume Signal is an adversary to the user[2] > I don't like it because it made other choices that led to their larger network being infested with scammers and all kinds of shady types, but at least the client itself doesn't suck :). Does it? Or have you made an assumption? I get a spam messenger on Signal maybe twice a year. Over SMS about 10 times a week (though a bit more than half are auto blocked), over phone I get at least 5 calls a week but sometimes I get that in a day, over WhatsApp I get a few a month. So I don't really buy your argument, but I'm only a sample size of one. But I also know there's no technical reason for your argument either. I'm also pretty sure we've had this conversation in the past, so what's up? You're one of the most active HN users[3], you're easy to remember. [0] https://signal.org/blog/uk-online-safety-bill/ https://signal.org/blog/uk-online-safety-bill/ [1] https://x.com/mer__edith https://x.com/mer__edith [2] https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/ [3] For anyone interested https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders