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I'm not a political scientist but being an immigrant myself (not to US but Germany), I've never understood why the whole issue can't be as simple as just lettin

I'm not a political scientist but being an immigrant myself (not to US but Germany), I've never understood why the whole issue can't be as simple as just letting people come in with a visa, applying for jobs (without law enforced disadvantages), and pay taxes, after x amount of years working and paying taxes then applying for citizenship and basta. I don't see what countries have to lose except skilled laborers that are working and paying taxes, boosting the economy and fostering innovation...

rayiner 14y ago
You're considering one case. But in a modern western country, citizenship comes with many benefits. It obliges the country to educate the immigrant's kids for free for 13 years each. It obliges the country to extend its social welfare programs to the immigrant and his family. It's reasonable for the country to want to control what obligations it incurs. You act like its risk-free for the host country, but it's not. You consider the immigrant who gets a job and pays taxes, but what about the ones that fail to get jobs and need welfare?
- njs12345 14y ago
  There are pretty easy ways around this e.g. require new immigrants to put enough money in escrow to cover a trip back to their home country and prevent them from claiming any sort of state benefits for a certain period. Regardless, I don't really think many immigrants go to another country just to be unemployed and claim benefits, especially for the people we're talking about here (those from developed Western countries who want to come to the US to be entrepreneurs/work in tech), which makes me think people are really concerned about wage deflation rather than anything else.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Once someone is here, sending them back is a challenge. And there aren't a ton of well-established people from western countries clamorimg to come here. There are some, but the majority are less established people--students, etc. It's a higher-risk demographic than you imply. Entrepreneurship is inherently quite risky, and there are plenty of unemployed people in tech.
    - njs12345 14y ago
      Unemployment is not pleasant in the US. I'm inclined to believe that most people from a Western nation would up and leave willingly if they weren't having much success, and that people from less developed nations would too if they weren't able to claim benefits. Being an immigrant isn't easy after all - if you're going to be unemployed it's probably easier to be unemployed in your home nation where you have a support network.
- deleted 14y ago
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- jfaucett 14y ago
  I realize this is the usually cited counter argument. ie that immigrants come and will more or less sponge off the well developed social system. I don't have any statistics and it would be interesting to see some data here. Speaking for myself though, I went for work, earning more money, living in a less corruption ridden society, basically just better living conditions, (not for sponging off the system) and I've been building software and paying into the german system ever since. You're right that their are risks for the host country but I think most young people would not be against "innovative" measure to decrease the host countries risk (ie. not being able to access the social system until x-amount of years paying taxes or whatever). I know I wouldn't have been.

rayiner 14y ago

You're considering one case. But in a modern western country, citizenship comes with many benefits. It obliges the country to educate the immigrant's kids for free for 13 years each. It obliges the country to extend its social welfare programs to the immigrant and his family. It's reasonable for the country to want to control what obligations it incurs. You act like its risk-free for the host country, but it's not. You consider the immigrant who gets a job and pays taxes, but what about the ones that fail to get jobs and need welfare?

njs12345 14y ago
There are pretty easy ways around this e.g. require new immigrants to put enough money in escrow to cover a trip back to their home country and prevent them from claiming any sort of state benefits for a certain period. Regardless, I don't really think many immigrants go to another country just to be unemployed and claim benefits, especially for the people we're talking about here (those from developed Western countries who want to come to the US to be entrepreneurs/work in tech), which makes me think people are really concerned about wage deflation rather than anything else.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Once someone is here, sending them back is a challenge. And there aren't a ton of well-established people from western countries clamorimg to come here. There are some, but the majority are less established people--students, etc. It's a higher-risk demographic than you imply. Entrepreneurship is inherently quite risky, and there are plenty of unemployed people in tech.
  - njs12345 14y ago
    Unemployment is not pleasant in the US. I'm inclined to believe that most people from a Western nation would up and leave willingly if they weren't having much success, and that people from less developed nations would too if they weren't able to claim benefits. Being an immigrant isn't easy after all - if you're going to be unemployed it's probably easier to be unemployed in your home nation where you have a support network.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jfaucett 14y ago
I realize this is the usually cited counter argument. ie that immigrants come and will more or less sponge off the well developed social system. I don't have any statistics and it would be interesting to see some data here. Speaking for myself though, I went for work, earning more money, living in a less corruption ridden society, basically just better living conditions, (not for sponging off the system) and I've been building software and paying into the german system ever since. You're right that their are risks for the host country but I think most young people would not be against "innovative" measure to decrease the host countries risk (ie. not being able to access the social system until x-amount of years paying taxes or whatever). I know I wouldn't have been.