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What makes you think they are going to be more power-hungry than if Apple manufactured them itself?

by progval 11mo ago

hedora 11mo ago
The article says it’s going on Intel 18a, which has better performance, but worse density/power consumption than TSMC’s comparable node: https://www.techspot.com/news/106782-intel-18a-found-faster-but-tsmc-n2-denser.html https://www.techspot.com/news/106782-intel-18a-found-faster-... Unless Apple is going to add active cooling or something to the Air, iPad and iPhone, I’d expect more thermal throttling on the intel chips (though the difference isn’t as stark as I assumed — it looks like Intel closed the gap a bit with 18a).
- bigyabai 11mo ago
  TSMC's 2nm is much, much higher demand. Apple's probably getting priced-out of the node by Nvidia in much the same way Apple bought out TSMC 5nm before. Apple's cheaper products and hardware cash cows can't afford to pay that sort of tax, so it makes sense to boot them onto 18A. Those are the binned products that would have been throttling anyways.
  - GeekyBear 11mo ago
    TSMC and Apple have a long standing partnership, and I doubt TSMC is dumb enough to throw a massive amount of long term business away in exchange for short term AI bubble gains. TSMC has even been cutting Apple special terms they don't give others: > every time TSMC introduces a major upgrade, called an advanced process node, to its chipmaking, the defect rates of the dies stay relatively high until it can iron out the kinks. For 3 nm, the most cutting-edge node launching this year, the yield on wafers has recently been in the range of 70% to 80%, according to analysts, as well as one person with direct knowledge of the process. That number would be a tough pill to swallow for TSMC’s customers, which typically pay for the wafer and all of the dies on it—including the bad ones. But in a break from standard practice, the Taiwanese manufacturer has only been charging Apple for dies that work—“known good dies,” in industry parlance—these people said. https://archive.ph/yfGLp https://archive.ph/yfGLp
    - bigyabai 11mo ago
      I doubt TSMC has a choice. Any fab allocation Apple can pay for, Nvidia can afford twice over. With that kind of money Nvidia could swallow the cost of 40% broken dies and still turn out higher hardware margins than any 2nm iPhone ever could. Neither the iPhone Air nor Vision Pro justify Apple's push to dominate the latest nodes. Novelty applications like "performance smartphone hardware" will have to wait on the sidelines. The datacenter needs it more than Apple or Qualcomm, and they've brought the beaucoup bucks to prove it.
      - GeekyBear 11mo ago
        > Novelty applications like "performance smartphone hardware" will have to wait on the sidelines. A quarter of your revenue isn't a "novelty". > Apple is by far TSMC’s largest customer, accounting for 23% of the Taiwanese chipmaker’s almost $72 billion in revenue in 2022. https://archive.ph/yfGLp https://archive.ph/yfGLp You don't throw away a long term partner over short term AI bubble gains if you intend to be a long term business.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        You're right that money talks. I just think you're forgetting which side has more leverage in this game. Apple is most certainly not being thrown away, merely asked to compete at the market price if they want the latest node. Anything else is wasted money from TSMC's perspective, they still make legacy nodes Apple can perfectly well use for the iPhone if they want to save cash.
        GeekyBear 11mo ago
        At most, TSMC will let Nvidia pay up front to build an additional Fab dedicated fully or partially to their use. The way Apple already does: > The investment includes “a multibillion-dollar commitment from Apple to produce advanced silicon in TSMC’s Fab 21 facility in Arizona,” according to Apple’s February announcement. The plan is to double Apple’s Advanced Manufacturing Fund from $5 billion to $10 billion, with TSMC Arizona a primary beneficiary. https://www.aztechcouncil.org/tucson-chipmaker-tsmc-arizona-becomes-central-hub-in-apples-500-billion-investment-strategy-contentoid36854482/ https://www.aztechcouncil.org/tucson-chipmaker-tsmc-arizona-... They aren't going to throw away a long term partner for short term gains.
- etempleton 11mo ago
  The performance / power difference between Intel 18a and TSMC 3nm / 2nm is not going to be that wide. Certainly not enough to require active cooling on phones / tablets. The rumor says they are targeting the M series processors anyway, so probably looking at it for their laptops first where there is active cooling and the power envelope is more forgiving.

What makes you think they are going to be more power-hungry than if Apple manufactured them itself?

by progval 11mo ago

What makes you think they are going to be more power-hungry than if Apple manufactured them itself?

hedora 11mo ago

The article says it’s going on Intel 18a, which has better performance, but worse density/power consumption than TSMC’s comparable node: https://www.techspot.com/news/106782-intel-18a-found-faster-but-tsmc-n2-denser.html https://www.techspot.com/news/106782-intel-18a-found-faster-... Unless Apple is going to add active cooling or something to the Air, iPad and iPhone, I’d expect more thermal throttling on the intel chips (though the difference isn’t as stark as I assumed — it looks like Intel closed the gap a bit with 18a).

bigyabai 11mo ago
TSMC's 2nm is much, much higher demand. Apple's probably getting priced-out of the node by Nvidia in much the same way Apple bought out TSMC 5nm before. Apple's cheaper products and hardware cash cows can't afford to pay that sort of tax, so it makes sense to boot them onto 18A. Those are the binned products that would have been throttling anyways.
- GeekyBear 11mo ago
  TSMC and Apple have a long standing partnership, and I doubt TSMC is dumb enough to throw a massive amount of long term business away in exchange for short term AI bubble gains. TSMC has even been cutting Apple special terms they don't give others: > every time TSMC introduces a major upgrade, called an advanced process node, to its chipmaking, the defect rates of the dies stay relatively high until it can iron out the kinks. For 3 nm, the most cutting-edge node launching this year, the yield on wafers has recently been in the range of 70% to 80%, according to analysts, as well as one person with direct knowledge of the process. That number would be a tough pill to swallow for TSMC’s customers, which typically pay for the wafer and all of the dies on it—including the bad ones. But in a break from standard practice, the Taiwanese manufacturer has only been charging Apple for dies that work—“known good dies,” in industry parlance—these people said. https://archive.ph/yfGLp https://archive.ph/yfGLp
  - bigyabai 11mo ago
    I doubt TSMC has a choice. Any fab allocation Apple can pay for, Nvidia can afford twice over. With that kind of money Nvidia could swallow the cost of 40% broken dies and still turn out higher hardware margins than any 2nm iPhone ever could. Neither the iPhone Air nor Vision Pro justify Apple's push to dominate the latest nodes. Novelty applications like "performance smartphone hardware" will have to wait on the sidelines. The datacenter needs it more than Apple or Qualcomm, and they've brought the beaucoup bucks to prove it.
    - GeekyBear 11mo ago
      > Novelty applications like "performance smartphone hardware" will have to wait on the sidelines. A quarter of your revenue isn't a "novelty". > Apple is by far TSMC’s largest customer, accounting for 23% of the Taiwanese chipmaker’s almost $72 billion in revenue in 2022. https://archive.ph/yfGLp https://archive.ph/yfGLp You don't throw away a long term partner over short term AI bubble gains if you intend to be a long term business.
      - bigyabai 11mo ago
        You're right that money talks. I just think you're forgetting which side has more leverage in this game. Apple is most certainly not being thrown away, merely asked to compete at the market price if they want the latest node. Anything else is wasted money from TSMC's perspective, they still make legacy nodes Apple can perfectly well use for the iPhone if they want to save cash.
        GeekyBear 11mo ago
        At most, TSMC will let Nvidia pay up front to build an additional Fab dedicated fully or partially to their use. The way Apple already does: > The investment includes “a multibillion-dollar commitment from Apple to produce advanced silicon in TSMC’s Fab 21 facility in Arizona,” according to Apple’s February announcement. The plan is to double Apple’s Advanced Manufacturing Fund from $5 billion to $10 billion, with TSMC Arizona a primary beneficiary. https://www.aztechcouncil.org/tucson-chipmaker-tsmc-arizona-becomes-central-hub-in-apples-500-billion-investment-strategy-contentoid36854482/ https://www.aztechcouncil.org/tucson-chipmaker-tsmc-arizona-... They aren't going to throw away a long term partner for short term gains.
etempleton 11mo ago
The performance / power difference between Intel 18a and TSMC 3nm / 2nm is not going to be that wide. Certainly not enough to require active cooling on phones / tablets. The rumor says they are targeting the M series processors anyway, so probably looking at it for their laptops first where there is active cooling and the power envelope is more forgiving.