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America to immigrants: keep your entrepreneurs

209 points by cwan 14y ago

jfaucett 14y ago
I'm not a political scientist but being an immigrant myself (not to US but Germany), I've never understood why the whole issue can't be as simple as just letting people come in with a visa, applying for jobs (without law enforced disadvantages), and pay taxes, after x amount of years working and paying taxes then applying for citizenship and basta. I don't see what countries have to lose except skilled laborers that are working and paying taxes, boosting the economy and fostering innovation...
- rayiner 14y ago
  You're considering one case. But in a modern western country, citizenship comes with many benefits. It obliges the country to educate the immigrant's kids for free for 13 years each. It obliges the country to extend its social welfare programs to the immigrant and his family. It's reasonable for the country to want to control what obligations it incurs. You act like its risk-free for the host country, but it's not. You consider the immigrant who gets a job and pays taxes, but what about the ones that fail to get jobs and need welfare?
  - njs12345 14y ago
    There are pretty easy ways around this e.g. require new immigrants to put enough money in escrow to cover a trip back to their home country and prevent them from claiming any sort of state benefits for a certain period. Regardless, I don't really think many immigrants go to another country just to be unemployed and claim benefits, especially for the people we're talking about here (those from developed Western countries who want to come to the US to be entrepreneurs/work in tech), which makes me think people are really concerned about wage deflation rather than anything else.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      Once someone is here, sending them back is a challenge. And there aren't a ton of well-established people from western countries clamorimg to come here. There are some, but the majority are less established people--students, etc. It's a higher-risk demographic than you imply. Entrepreneurship is inherently quite risky, and there are plenty of unemployed people in tech.
      - njs12345 14y ago
        Unemployment is not pleasant in the US. I'm inclined to believe that most people from a Western nation would up and leave willingly if they weren't having much success, and that people from less developed nations would too if they weren't able to claim benefits. Being an immigrant isn't easy after all - if you're going to be unemployed it's probably easier to be unemployed in your home nation where you have a support network.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - jfaucett 14y ago
    I realize this is the usually cited counter argument. ie that immigrants come and will more or less sponge off the well developed social system. I don't have any statistics and it would be interesting to see some data here. Speaking for myself though, I went for work, earning more money, living in a less corruption ridden society, basically just better living conditions, (not for sponging off the system) and I've been building software and paying into the german system ever since. You're right that their are risks for the host country but I think most young people would not be against "innovative" measure to decrease the host countries risk (ie. not being able to access the social system until x-amount of years paying taxes or whatever). I know I wouldn't have been.
bduerst 14y ago
Doesn't the O-Visa allow you to create and run a business?
- shreyansj 14y ago
  No. EB5 category allows you to start your business but it has it's own conditions. You get a provisional EB5 visa during which you must invest $1M and employ 10 people to qualify for a permanent visa. Up until recently, VC funding was not a qualifier towards the $1M number.
- codegeek 14y ago
  O visa is for exceptional ability and they really mean exceptional. So who qualifies for those ? people with scientific researches, publications, inventions etc. Not the average hacker.
  - gregors 14y ago
    Shera Bechard got one
tokenadult 14y ago
Vivek Wadhwa writes about his pet issue yet again, with this article including the key point about his evidence, "I tell Desai’s and others’ stories in my book," and at least this time a reference to an study by the Kauffman Foundation http://www.kauffman.org//uploadedFiles/Then_and_now_americas_new_immigrant_entrepreneurs.pdf http://www.kauffman.org//uploadedFiles/Then_and_now_americas... of which he was the principal author. Get ready for the key statistic from the report: "The proportion of immigrant-founded companies nationwide has dropped from 25.3 percent to 24.3 percent since 2005. While the margins of error of these numbers overlap, they nonetheless indicate that immigrant-founded companies’ dynamic period of expansion has come to an end." Okay, so the change in percentage is within the standard error of measurement; a percentage change of that kind would be seen even if there were more immigrant-founded companies than ever, as long as more native-born Americans than ever found companies; and there is NO indication that Silicon Valley's flood of innovation has ceased. What is the problem here? Quantitatively, what is the proof that any policy change is needed? AFTER EDIT: Responding to the offense taken by the replies kindly posted below, let me explain my position. My PERSONAL position on immigration to the United States as a matter of policy is that I would be happy to see it go back to the way it was in the 1870s, when anyone could immigrate from anywhere with hardly any regulation of immigration at all. All of my ancestors arrived in the United States by those rules--all of my ancestors were in North America well in advance of the building of the immigration processing station at Ellis Island in New York City. I am intimately familiar with United States immigration law, having formerly worked as an immigration lawyer (as described in my user profile here on Hacker News) and being the husband of a first-generation immigrant to the United States from Taiwan. I have lived abroad for six years of my life (in two separate three-year stays), so I have a pretty good idea of how one country treats foreign residents from America. The clients for my current occupation, teaching mathematics lessons through a local nonprofit organization, included first-generation immigrants from China, India, Russia, Romania, the Philippines, Korea, Ghana, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey, and other countries I may be forgetting at the moment. I like immigrants, and I like America to be full of immigrants--that makes life here more interesting. But to persuade the legislative process in the United States to change the rules requires more convincing evidence than the anecdotes that Vivek Wadhwa repeatedly brings forward. Another comment here astutely pointed out that the recent trend line in immigration from Taiwan is that entrepreneur immigration to the United States is decreasing. That's because Taiwan has democratized, liberalized, and prospered during my lifetime. Now people who were born in Taiwan can pursue their advanced education in many different countries, being well prepared by the generally excellent primary and secondary education there, and then can decide for themselves where to settle to establish a career. They can go back to the country where they grew up and where their relatives and childhood friends live if they like. I think it's great for people to have choice like that. I don't think it is any problem for the United States at all if people from Taiwan develop their entrepreneurial businesses in Taiwan. The same is true of India and China. People from India and China continue to come to the United States in large numbers, as I can personally observe. Some study here and then go back to the countries of their birth. No one has made a case that United States policy has to change much to influence the numbers one way or another.
lbarrow 14y ago
One of my first jobs out of college was with MobileWorks, a YC company founded in part by foreign graduate students at Berkeley. I wouldn't have been employed if the founders hadn't managed to navigate the atrocious laws preventing foreign entrepreneurs from starting companies in the US. I'm sure that for every American with a story like mine, there are dozens of people who could have been employed at companies started by foreign-born entrepreneurs but never had the chance. The US is doing serious, long-term damage to itself with these wrong-headed policies.
lovamova 14y ago
I just found that the H1-B visa requires a bachelor's degree. You can't get work in the US if you're a talented designer or programmer and don't have a degree.
- johansch 14y ago
  There is an exception for people who have worked a long time in the field (I don't recall the exact number, but something like 12+ years) and can document that.
- codegeek 14y ago
  The exact requirement is "bachelors degree or equivalent ". So if you have at least 5+ years of work experience in the specific field/employer, you might be able to get it. But yes, it is extremely tough to prove the *equivalent" part because it can mean anything.
  - anewguy 14y ago
    Equivalent is 3 years of work for every one year of bachelors degree missing (so partially college helps)
- garindra 14y ago
  Yep, this is a quite an annoyance for me. To give you a little background : I'm a 20-year-old international student, currently pursuing a bachelor's degree at a US university, and have been employed full-time at a mid-sized software company in Silicon Valley as a UI engineer/backend developer for a year through the CPT program -- a program which basically allows international students to work at a company outside of the university as long as the line of work matches the major. After several months of working there, my company showed interest in giving me an H1-B visa, which basically got me really excited as I, to be blunt, enjoy the work a whole lot more than college. I thought I could bypass the whole educational process and join the workforce directly. Turned out, I was wrong. When the company went through the visa process, they figured it's not possible to give out H1-B visa to foreigners without bachelor's degree. [1] It's possible to substitute the degree with I think ~7 years of professional work, but I have nowhere near that experience. So here I am, trying to finish school as fast as I can. [1] They just figured this out as they never offered visa to a degree-less foreign employee before.
Jd 14y ago
Title is confusing. It should be "would-be immigrants" not "immigrants."
tosseraccount 14y ago
If America really wants to increase entrepreneurship, make health insurance portable and not tied to corporate America. That would encourage workers to start their own business. Trying to tweak the immigration process in the name of "increased entrepreneurship" is often just a ruse for "open the borders!!!". Fine in and of itself if that's your beef. Just please file it right folder. Letting Congress, political donors, H1-B employers and college administrators try and engineer the future by selecting "winners" seems like something they're going to mess up. Better to have limited, legal only immigration based on a points system rather than turn it into a subsidy for Sand Hill Road.
- tomasien 14y ago
  Agree with first point: healthcare access to all = job churn = more entrepreneurship
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Healthcare access is keeping a huge important demographic out of the startup scene: older, experienced engineers with domain specific knowledge. A startup I worked for was founded by an electrical engineer with a PhD and 20 years of experience in radio engineering. He had three kids, but was lucky to have a wife whose job provided health insurance. Many potential founders aren't so lucky. And I think that fact is reflected in today's startup scene. A lot of innovation in areas amenable to being worked on by 22 year old fresh grads, but very little in "hard" areas of engineering. Projects like Tesla Motors are an unusual exception, and those seem mostly to be second-projects for successful founders.
    - enraged_camel 14y ago
      The fundamental problem is not that insurance is tied to employment, but that you need health insurance in the first place because healthcare is so ridiculously expensive. Make it more affordable and the lack of health insurance stops being such a big problem.
      - 14y ago
urgeio 14y ago
The US isn't the only place to start something, try Berlin and say goodbye to any visa problems. Top 5 reasons why you should move to Berlin, now: 1. Lowest livings costs with highest quality of living. Stay in gorgeous, perfectly renovated apartments in pre-WWII residential buildings with high ceilings, right in the middle of the center and pay a fraction of costs of any other capital (even cheaper than any Eastern European capital). No need for a car—Berlin has one of the densest subway nets and wide streets make biking fun. 2. A vibrant and fast growing ecosystem of smart people. A vast number of new software talents, founders, software companies and VCs are moving to Berlin, every day (Twitter, Google, Soundcloud, Early Bird and many more). 3. People here are open-minded, outgoing, mix well and international—no need to learn German, everyone speaks English! Making new friends is a matter of days. Visit tons of networking and startup events, every week. 4. Easy work permissions—Europeans do not need any and can work from day one and the rest applies for the hassle-free Blue Card. 5. Berlin's night life is unmatched, huge and changing every day (plus ridiculously cheap). Berlin has got some of the most dazzling, naughty, and original clubs on the face of the Earth. Berlin is calling and getting the new tech hub of Europe. If you are passionate about building great software, we’d love to talk with you. If you don't live in Berlin yet, we could help to fix that. => http://urge.io/jobs http://urge.io/jobs (shameless plug)
- tomjen3 14y ago
  I wouldn't want to start a company in Germany, but I wouldn't mind working there. I like Berlin though I would hate to help pay the bailout money for Greece.
  - arjunnarayan 14y ago
    Why can't you just start a Delaware C-Corp and build it out from Berlin?
    - enra 14y ago
      Probably you would still need to start a German subsidiary if you want to lease, hire or otherwise act as a company in German.
rdl 14y ago
It was interesting listening to a fairly liberal guest on Bloomberg/Charlie Rose the other day, who claimed the search for "comprehensive" immigration reform was the biggest enemy of high-skill immigration reform right now. Essentially everyone agrees on easier and longer (to permanent) visas for future or currently-legal but temporary visa entrepreneurs, high skill immigrants (for various definitions), etc. There isn't a clear consensus on how to handle pre-existing other immigrants, or future low-skill immigrants. There are also weird corner cases caused by long-term illegal/undocumented presence by children, which is what the DREAM act is supposed to address -- a child who was brought here shortly after birth, who grew up a US citizen, graduated high school, college, etc., really doesn't seem the same as an adult who recently and of his own free will crossed the border. Part of it is racial/racism, but a lot of it is economics; trying to paint enemies of mass unskilled immigration or immigration amnesty as just racists is doing everyone a disservice. But it's also undeniable that the high-skill immigrants with problems are generally from India and China (where the H1B system is most broken due to nationwide quotas) and from other parts of Asia, Europe, etc., and the illegal/low skill immigrants are largely from Mexico, Guatemala, and other Latin American countries. There is also some confusion about credentials vs. actual skills, too -- I'd rather bring Bill Gates in than most people with BA's from diploma mills or even legitimate PhDs. The problem with comprehensive reform (as championed by the democrats and Obama) is that it's all or nothing, vs. incrementally solving each class. The proponents of comprehensive believe (probably rightly) that solving the most obvious and pressing problem (the 1 million or so skilled immigrants who are all currently legal) will take away the drive to solve the 12 million unskilled/illegal immigrants already here, or the many million who would immigrate without skills if it were easy and open. It would also quite possibly lead to a more restrictive regime for the unskilled vs. skilled. Ultimately we seem to be solving the immigration problem by destroying the US economy (outside high tech and government, neither of which employs a lot of illegals), thus depressing wages and job opportunities for illegal/unskilled immigrants, while mexico continues to develop its economy -- it makes more sense to work there legally for 10% the cost of living and 30% the wage in many cases.
- _delirium 14y ago
  > It would also quite possibly lead to a more restrictive regime for the unskilled vs. skilled. What I'm worried is that it'll also lead to more market distortion, as the government tries to micromanage specific industries and quotas, which will inevitably be based on which industries lobby the most. If it were a fairly general skilled/unskilled distinction, like Canada's points system, I'd support that, though.
Sharma 14y ago
Not fully related to this article but inline with the comments what I am reading. I am always amazed at the different kinds of programs and rules introduced by USA for giving permanency to illegal immigrants where as people moving/moved legally (H1b/L1b etc) have to wait forever(like 10 years and still waiting) to get that status.People on H1B/L1B can not start a side business and these are the tech people(mostly) who can add lots of value to the existing market.
- kylecsteele 14y ago
  Your statement that "H1B/L1B can not start a side business" is factually incorrect. Any legal non immigrant can start a business, who he/she cannot work for it. That's the problem.
  - Sharma 14y ago
    Well I know about that.You can open a company but can not work for it.What is the use?
tomasien 14y ago
I wonder if there are any stats or correlations between universal healthcare (or something similar) and entrepreneurship. It's supposed to increase job churn, which is awesome for the economy, and you'd think more people would start their own businesses if saving their healthcare wasn't a consideration. I know personally that I started my own business specifically because I was allowed to stay on my parents healthcare until I'm 25(26? Shit I should figure that out) so even with $5k in savings, I was like why not?
- tomasien 14y ago
  That's a massive over-simplification of my insatiable call to be a builder, but without the security of health insurance coverage I might not have done it straight out of college.
gregors 14y ago
seems like fud to me, how else could you explain this? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/29/us-usa-visa-extraordinary-idUSBRE85S09A20120629 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/29/us-usa-visa-extrao...
makmanalp 14y ago
I actually know that it is possible to get an H-1B for a legitimate business that you, as a foreign entrepreneur, founded. I also know that such applications are very rare and very thoroughly scrutinized to make sure it's not an immigration loophole, and there is the restriction that you cannot be a majority shareholder, which kills it unless you have partners. Less known is that a person can also sponsor you for an H-1B if you are going to be working for them.
arbuge 14y ago
It's hard to understand how byzantine and ridiculous the immigration system is unless you've been through it. I have no idea whose interest it is currently serving - I know for a fact not America's though.
gideon_b 14y ago
As an American citizen working in Canada I have the same problem on the other side of the fence. My work permit is tied to my Canadian employer and it is not possible for me to get a work permit as a self employed worker or an entrepreneur. From what I understand this is a fairly universal problem with immigration policy. Most developed countries are unwilling hand over work permits for hopes and dreams. I wish there was a way around this but as far as I know you cannot start a company without permanent residency.
ck2 14y ago
In perspective, does ANY country do this "right" ?
stewie2 14y ago
the DREAM Act is not for real dreamers.
ta12121 14y ago
Regarding the title, I assure you that the poor and the tired have a harder time immigrating to the U.S. than any entrepreneur.
dxbydt 14y ago
oh its a vivek wadhwa piece...if vivek says the sun rises from the east, i'm much more likely to believe it must be the west. vivek periodically writes these half baked partisan anecdote-ridden pieces & calls it "research"....as a former immigrant and a recipient of the so-called "genius visa" (EB1), i'm very sympathetic to the cause. yes, immigration to the USA is very hassly and the laws must be vastly simplified etc... but this won't do. this sort of article is akin to a startup job post on HN. "Immigration. Its broken! We must fix it. We are a group of yc founders who will build immigration from scratch in Ruby on Rails. For the harder parts we will ofcourse use PHP. You must be a rockstar immigrant with 100 years of immigration behind you. For bonus points, show me your immigration in github. Solve this immigration puzzle on our website using only backbone.js and coffeescript, and you can score an exclusive lunch with us, cooked by immigrants, catered by immigrants, exclusively for you, the immigrant. Don't forget to carry your H1B visas on your person, you never know when you might be deported! Apply already, but only after you decode our bcrypt secured ROT13 encrypted immigration email and pay processing fees of 13 dollars 26 cents exclusively in bitcoins". founding companies is not simply a matter of talent and risk-appetite, which, arguably, the STEM immigrant has more of. its also a matter of feeling secure with your finances, having a house in a good school district, having a CD or two for the rainy day, having some connections to the VC community, having the time & desire to hack up a prototype & blog about it & build a community & attract enough interest...all of which immigrants are less likely to do, given that we are already preoccupied with keeping a job, keeping our immigration papers in order, gradually building up savings, digging ourselves out of the negative equity hole that most of us are in because we borrowed money to get here in the first place...i could go on and on, but i won't. suffice it to say, the sun definitely rises in the west, because vivek has said its the east.
Zenst 14y ago
When I see a headline like this one I immediately think of this cartoon : http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/first_illegal_immigrants.jpg http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/... I chuckle a bit and then move onto the headline "America to immigrants: ‘Give me your tired, your poor’ but keep your entrepreneurs" Written by Vivek Wadhwa and chuckle some more. I then having got past the title got to read a rather insightful article about how it is easy to come and work in America and visa's for that exist. But if you which to start a company and as such have a situation were you have to apply for citizenship, then you could have a top 25 existing company in-play already employing American's and pay lots of TAX then you can still be told sorry no. That said there was mention of a % drop in immigrant started companies and this still points to them happening. I suspect the tighter limits has meant raising the bar beyond what it needs to be for many and with that perhaps a new type of VISA needs to be made. I don't know the whole American VISA system that well, but certainly some middle ground from worker VISA to citizen VISA to cater for those employing American's can be met. Maybe if they employ so many then they qualify. So for example if you can form a company and employ say 5 people full time then you are granted say a 5 year business VISA which is reviewed every 5 years to see that you meet checks and after say 3 period gain a full citizenship. Something like that, though a lot more detailed against loopholes I suspect. But still, very nice read and very good article, despite the interesting choice of title, albeit once you have read the article you will see why it is just on so many levels sadly.
0ren 14y ago
While I may agree that the US should do more to encourage immigrant entrepreneurs, I do not think that the author chose a good openning example. The author points to statistics about tech companies started by immigrants and presents Desai as part of the team that developed new technology, but Desai studied MBA and he was only doing an administrative job at IR Diagnostyx[0]. Moreover, the openning example does not seem to be precise; the author claims that Desai was not given an opportunity to start his business, which does not seem to be aligned with Desai being affiliated with IR Diagnostyx from 2009 to Feb 2012[1]. Furthermore, upon graduation in 2009, the US did give Desai 12 months of OPT[2], for which self-employment does qualify. In fact, if Desai had studied Science/Tech/Engineering/Math, he would have been give an an extension of 17 months of OPT[3], for a total of ~2.5 years to work on his business. [0] http://it-jobs.fins.com/Articles/SB130652363641519729/American-Dream-Fades-for-H-1B-Hopefuls http://it-jobs.fins.com/Articles/SB130652363641519729/Americ... [1] http://www.linkedin.com/in/hardikadesai http://www.linkedin.com/in/hardikadesai [2] Optional Practical Training, assuming he was on F1 visa as a student: http://icenter.stanford.edu/students/current/employment_faq.html http://icenter.stanford.edu/students/current/employment_faq.... [3] http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ff791c491861a110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f...
winter_blue 14y ago
Is anyone here rejoicing at the fact that due erroneous U.S. immigration policies India and China are suffering less brain drain??
photorized 14y ago
Re: "But the U.S. government wouldn’t provide Hardik with a visa to start the company. Hardik had no difficulty in getting an H1-B visa that allowed him to work, but immigration rules did not allow him to work for a company that he started. So, he abandoned his entrepreneurial dreams." Obstacles like this shouldn't stop an entrepreneur. I had to do the whole H1-B thing myself, while bootstrapping another business on the side - and there are no rules against that. I know others who did the same. Have a job, launch a company in your spare time.
- mavelikara 14y ago
  Was the startup you launched on the side profitable? Were you able to draw any income from it?
confluence 14y ago
Entrepreneurs are overvalued. Period. The glorification and, sometimes deification, of various entrepreneurs as almost single handedly bringing the world out of the darkness is complete bullshit and merely an example of the fundamental attribution error writ large (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). People just completely forget that a) the world is an incredibly complex system that rarely has single factor causes to various effects and b) that people just don't matter - the ecosystem that surrounds them matters much more. For example not worrying about personal security frees up employees to take more risk. A strong rule of law that attempts to equate wrongs allows people to focus on value added services rather than the fear of litigation. Access to cheap raw materials (plentiful mining/food/water) allows one to easily build things that would be quite simply uneconomical anywhere else. A capitalist system allows more niches to be profitably exploited than centrally planned economies. "Special innovative people" are by far the least of your worries. Systems matter more than any one person and anyone who gives you the "A player" talk is full of crap - "A player" yourself out of Afghanistan as a sick female and we'll see who's talking.
GNUAerospace 14y ago
“H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified US worker wants the job, and a US worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.” US Department of Labor The US government and corporations have sold you out as a US CITIZEN. See the proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&#38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&

209 points by cwan 14y ago

I'm not a political scientist but being an immigrant myself (not to US but Germany), I've never understood why the whole issue can't be as simple as just letting people come in with a visa, applying for jobs (without law enforced disadvantages), and pay taxes, after x amount of years working and paying taxes then applying for citizenship and basta. I don't see what countries have to lose except skilled laborers that are working and paying taxes, boosting the economy and fostering innovation...

rayiner 14y ago
You're considering one case. But in a modern western country, citizenship comes with many benefits. It obliges the country to educate the immigrant's kids for free for 13 years each. It obliges the country to extend its social welfare programs to the immigrant and his family. It's reasonable for the country to want to control what obligations it incurs. You act like its risk-free for the host country, but it's not. You consider the immigrant who gets a job and pays taxes, but what about the ones that fail to get jobs and need welfare?
- njs12345 14y ago
  There are pretty easy ways around this e.g. require new immigrants to put enough money in escrow to cover a trip back to their home country and prevent them from claiming any sort of state benefits for a certain period. Regardless, I don't really think many immigrants go to another country just to be unemployed and claim benefits, especially for the people we're talking about here (those from developed Western countries who want to come to the US to be entrepreneurs/work in tech), which makes me think people are really concerned about wage deflation rather than anything else.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Once someone is here, sending them back is a challenge. And there aren't a ton of well-established people from western countries clamorimg to come here. There are some, but the majority are less established people--students, etc. It's a higher-risk demographic than you imply. Entrepreneurship is inherently quite risky, and there are plenty of unemployed people in tech.
    - njs12345 14y ago
      Unemployment is not pleasant in the US. I'm inclined to believe that most people from a Western nation would up and leave willingly if they weren't having much success, and that people from less developed nations would too if they weren't able to claim benefits. Being an immigrant isn't easy after all - if you're going to be unemployed it's probably easier to be unemployed in your home nation where you have a support network.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jfaucett 14y ago
  I realize this is the usually cited counter argument. ie that immigrants come and will more or less sponge off the well developed social system. I don't have any statistics and it would be interesting to see some data here. Speaking for myself though, I went for work, earning more money, living in a less corruption ridden society, basically just better living conditions, (not for sponging off the system) and I've been building software and paying into the german system ever since. You're right that their are risks for the host country but I think most young people would not be against "innovative" measure to decrease the host countries risk (ie. not being able to access the social system until x-amount of years paying taxes or whatever). I know I wouldn't have been.

bduerst 14y ago

Doesn't the O-Visa allow you to create and run a business?

shreyansj 14y ago
No. EB5 category allows you to start your business but it has it's own conditions. You get a provisional EB5 visa during which you must invest $1M and employ 10 people to qualify for a permanent visa. Up until recently, VC funding was not a qualifier towards the $1M number.
codegeek 14y ago
O visa is for exceptional ability and they really mean exceptional. So who qualifies for those ? people with scientific researches, publications, inventions etc. Not the average hacker.
- gregors 14y ago
  Shera Bechard got one

tokenadult 14y ago

Vivek Wadhwa writes about his pet issue yet again, with this article including the key point about his evidence, "I tell Desai’s and others’ stories in my book," and at least this time a reference to an study by the Kauffman Foundation http://www.kauffman.org//uploadedFiles/Then_and_now_americas_new_immigrant_entrepreneurs.pdf http://www.kauffman.org//uploadedFiles/Then_and_now_americas... of which he was the principal author. Get ready for the key statistic from the report: "The proportion of immigrant-founded companies nationwide has dropped from 25.3 percent to 24.3 percent since 2005. While the margins of error of these numbers overlap, they nonetheless indicate that immigrant-founded companies’ dynamic period of expansion has come to an end." Okay, so the change in percentage is within the standard error of measurement; a percentage change of that kind would be seen even if there were more immigrant-founded companies than ever, as long as more native-born Americans than ever found companies; and there is NO indication that Silicon Valley's flood of innovation has ceased. What is the problem here? Quantitatively, what is the proof that any policy change is needed? AFTER EDIT: Responding to the offense taken by the replies kindly posted below, let me explain my position. My PERSONAL position on immigration to the United States as a matter of policy is that I would be happy to see it go back to the way it was in the 1870s, when anyone could immigrate from anywhere with hardly any regulation of immigration at all. All of my ancestors arrived in the United States by those rules--all of my ancestors were in North America well in advance of the building of the immigration processing station at Ellis Island in New York City. I am intimately familiar with United States immigration law, having formerly worked as an immigration lawyer (as described in my user profile here on Hacker News) and being the husband of a first-generation immigrant to the United States from Taiwan. I have lived abroad for six years of my life (in two separate three-year stays), so I have a pretty good idea of how one country treats foreign residents from America. The clients for my current occupation, teaching mathematics lessons through a local nonprofit organization, included first-generation immigrants from China, India, Russia, Romania, the Philippines, Korea, Ghana, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey, and other countries I may be forgetting at the moment. I like immigrants, and I like America to be full of immigrants--that makes life here more interesting. But to persuade the legislative process in the United States to change the rules requires more convincing evidence than the anecdotes that Vivek Wadhwa repeatedly brings forward. Another comment here astutely pointed out that the recent trend line in immigration from Taiwan is that entrepreneur immigration to the United States is decreasing. That's because Taiwan has democratized, liberalized, and prospered during my lifetime. Now people who were born in Taiwan can pursue their advanced education in many different countries, being well prepared by the generally excellent primary and secondary education there, and then can decide for themselves where to settle to establish a career. They can go back to the country where they grew up and where their relatives and childhood friends live if they like. I think it's great for people to have choice like that. I don't think it is any problem for the United States at all if people from Taiwan develop their entrepreneurial businesses in Taiwan. The same is true of India and China. People from India and China continue to come to the United States in large numbers, as I can personally observe. Some study here and then go back to the countries of their birth. No one has made a case that United States policy has to change much to influence the numbers one way or another.

lbarrow 14y ago

One of my first jobs out of college was with MobileWorks, a YC company founded in part by foreign graduate students at Berkeley. I wouldn't have been employed if the founders hadn't managed to navigate the atrocious laws preventing foreign entrepreneurs from starting companies in the US. I'm sure that for every American with a story like mine, there are dozens of people who could have been employed at companies started by foreign-born entrepreneurs but never had the chance. The US is doing serious, long-term damage to itself with these wrong-headed policies.

lovamova 14y ago

I just found that the H1-B visa requires a bachelor's degree. You can't get work in the US if you're a talented designer or programmer and don't have a degree.

johansch 14y ago
There is an exception for people who have worked a long time in the field (I don't recall the exact number, but something like 12+ years) and can document that.
codegeek 14y ago
The exact requirement is "bachelors degree or equivalent ". So if you have at least 5+ years of work experience in the specific field/employer, you might be able to get it. But yes, it is extremely tough to prove the *equivalent" part because it can mean anything.
- anewguy 14y ago
  Equivalent is 3 years of work for every one year of bachelors degree missing (so partially college helps)
garindra 14y ago
Yep, this is a quite an annoyance for me. To give you a little background : I'm a 20-year-old international student, currently pursuing a bachelor's degree at a US university, and have been employed full-time at a mid-sized software company in Silicon Valley as a UI engineer/backend developer for a year through the CPT program -- a program which basically allows international students to work at a company outside of the university as long as the line of work matches the major. After several months of working there, my company showed interest in giving me an H1-B visa, which basically got me really excited as I, to be blunt, enjoy the work a whole lot more than college. I thought I could bypass the whole educational process and join the workforce directly. Turned out, I was wrong. When the company went through the visa process, they figured it's not possible to give out H1-B visa to foreigners without bachelor's degree. [1] It's possible to substitute the degree with I think ~7 years of professional work, but I have nowhere near that experience. So here I am, trying to finish school as fast as I can. [1] They just figured this out as they never offered visa to a degree-less foreign employee before.

Jd 14y ago

Title is confusing. It should be "would-be immigrants" not "immigrants."

tosseraccount 14y ago

If America really wants to increase entrepreneurship, make health insurance portable and not tied to corporate America. That would encourage workers to start their own business. Trying to tweak the immigration process in the name of "increased entrepreneurship" is often just a ruse for "open the borders!!!". Fine in and of itself if that's your beef. Just please file it right folder. Letting Congress, political donors, H1-B employers and college administrators try and engineer the future by selecting "winners" seems like something they're going to mess up. Better to have limited, legal only immigration based on a points system rather than turn it into a subsidy for Sand Hill Road.

tomasien 14y ago
Agree with first point: healthcare access to all = job churn = more entrepreneurship
- rayiner 14y ago
  Healthcare access is keeping a huge important demographic out of the startup scene: older, experienced engineers with domain specific knowledge. A startup I worked for was founded by an electrical engineer with a PhD and 20 years of experience in radio engineering. He had three kids, but was lucky to have a wife whose job provided health insurance. Many potential founders aren't so lucky. And I think that fact is reflected in today's startup scene. A lot of innovation in areas amenable to being worked on by 22 year old fresh grads, but very little in "hard" areas of engineering. Projects like Tesla Motors are an unusual exception, and those seem mostly to be second-projects for successful founders.
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    The fundamental problem is not that insurance is tied to employment, but that you need health insurance in the first place because healthcare is so ridiculously expensive. Make it more affordable and the lack of health insurance stops being such a big problem.
    - 14y ago

urgeio 14y ago

The US isn't the only place to start something, try Berlin and say goodbye to any visa problems. Top 5 reasons why you should move to Berlin, now: 1. Lowest livings costs with highest quality of living. Stay in gorgeous, perfectly renovated apartments in pre-WWII residential buildings with high ceilings, right in the middle of the center and pay a fraction of costs of any other capital (even cheaper than any Eastern European capital). No need for a car—Berlin has one of the densest subway nets and wide streets make biking fun. 2. A vibrant and fast growing ecosystem of smart people. A vast number of new software talents, founders, software companies and VCs are moving to Berlin, every day (Twitter, Google, Soundcloud, Early Bird and many more). 3. People here are open-minded, outgoing, mix well and international—no need to learn German, everyone speaks English! Making new friends is a matter of days. Visit tons of networking and startup events, every week. 4. Easy work permissions—Europeans do not need any and can work from day one and the rest applies for the hassle-free Blue Card. 5. Berlin's night life is unmatched, huge and changing every day (plus ridiculously cheap). Berlin has got some of the most dazzling, naughty, and original clubs on the face of the Earth. Berlin is calling and getting the new tech hub of Europe. If you are passionate about building great software, we’d love to talk with you. If you don't live in Berlin yet, we could help to fix that. => http://urge.io/jobs http://urge.io/jobs (shameless plug)

tomjen3 14y ago
I wouldn't want to start a company in Germany, but I wouldn't mind working there. I like Berlin though I would hate to help pay the bailout money for Greece.
- arjunnarayan 14y ago
  Why can't you just start a Delaware C-Corp and build it out from Berlin?
  - enra 14y ago
    Probably you would still need to start a German subsidiary if you want to lease, hire or otherwise act as a company in German.

rdl 14y ago

It was interesting listening to a fairly liberal guest on Bloomberg/Charlie Rose the other day, who claimed the search for "comprehensive" immigration reform was the biggest enemy of high-skill immigration reform right now. Essentially everyone agrees on easier and longer (to permanent) visas for future or currently-legal but temporary visa entrepreneurs, high skill immigrants (for various definitions), etc. There isn't a clear consensus on how to handle pre-existing other immigrants, or future low-skill immigrants. There are also weird corner cases caused by long-term illegal/undocumented presence by children, which is what the DREAM act is supposed to address -- a child who was brought here shortly after birth, who grew up a US citizen, graduated high school, college, etc., really doesn't seem the same as an adult who recently and of his own free will crossed the border. Part of it is racial/racism, but a lot of it is economics; trying to paint enemies of mass unskilled immigration or immigration amnesty as just racists is doing everyone a disservice. But it's also undeniable that the high-skill immigrants with problems are generally from India and China (where the H1B system is most broken due to nationwide quotas) and from other parts of Asia, Europe, etc., and the illegal/low skill immigrants are largely from Mexico, Guatemala, and other Latin American countries. There is also some confusion about credentials vs. actual skills, too -- I'd rather bring Bill Gates in than most people with BA's from diploma mills or even legitimate PhDs. The problem with comprehensive reform (as championed by the democrats and Obama) is that it's all or nothing, vs. incrementally solving each class. The proponents of comprehensive believe (probably rightly) that solving the most obvious and pressing problem (the 1 million or so skilled immigrants who are all currently legal) will take away the drive to solve the 12 million unskilled/illegal immigrants already here, or the many million who would immigrate without skills if it were easy and open. It would also quite possibly lead to a more restrictive regime for the unskilled vs. skilled. Ultimately we seem to be solving the immigration problem by destroying the US economy (outside high tech and government, neither of which employs a lot of illegals), thus depressing wages and job opportunities for illegal/unskilled immigrants, while mexico continues to develop its economy -- it makes more sense to work there legally for 10% the cost of living and 30% the wage in many cases.

_delirium 14y ago
> It would also quite possibly lead to a more restrictive regime for the unskilled vs. skilled. What I'm worried is that it'll also lead to more market distortion, as the government tries to micromanage specific industries and quotas, which will inevitably be based on which industries lobby the most. If it were a fairly general skilled/unskilled distinction, like Canada's points system, I'd support that, though.

Sharma 14y ago

Not fully related to this article but inline with the comments what I am reading. I am always amazed at the different kinds of programs and rules introduced by USA for giving permanency to illegal immigrants where as people moving/moved legally (H1b/L1b etc) have to wait forever(like 10 years and still waiting) to get that status.People on H1B/L1B can not start a side business and these are the tech people(mostly) who can add lots of value to the existing market.

kylecsteele 14y ago
Your statement that "H1B/L1B can not start a side business" is factually incorrect. Any legal non immigrant can start a business, who he/she cannot work for it. That's the problem.
- Sharma 14y ago
  Well I know about that.You can open a company but can not work for it.What is the use?

tomasien 14y ago

I wonder if there are any stats or correlations between universal healthcare (or something similar) and entrepreneurship. It's supposed to increase job churn, which is awesome for the economy, and you'd think more people would start their own businesses if saving their healthcare wasn't a consideration. I know personally that I started my own business specifically because I was allowed to stay on my parents healthcare until I'm 25(26? Shit I should figure that out) so even with $5k in savings, I was like why not?

tomasien 14y ago
That's a massive over-simplification of my insatiable call to be a builder, but without the security of health insurance coverage I might not have done it straight out of college.

gregors 14y ago

seems like fud to me, how else could you explain this? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/29/us-usa-visa-extraordinary-idUSBRE85S09A20120629 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/29/us-usa-visa-extrao...

makmanalp 14y ago

I actually know that it is possible to get an H-1B for a legitimate business that you, as a foreign entrepreneur, founded. I also know that such applications are very rare and very thoroughly scrutinized to make sure it's not an immigration loophole, and there is the restriction that you cannot be a majority shareholder, which kills it unless you have partners. Less known is that a person can also sponsor you for an H-1B if you are going to be working for them.

arbuge 14y ago

It's hard to understand how byzantine and ridiculous the immigration system is unless you've been through it. I have no idea whose interest it is currently serving - I know for a fact not America's though.

gideon_b 14y ago

As an American citizen working in Canada I have the same problem on the other side of the fence. My work permit is tied to my Canadian employer and it is not possible for me to get a work permit as a self employed worker or an entrepreneur. From what I understand this is a fairly universal problem with immigration policy. Most developed countries are unwilling hand over work permits for hopes and dreams. I wish there was a way around this but as far as I know you cannot start a company without permanent residency.

ck2 14y ago

In perspective, does ANY country do this "right" ?

stewie2 14y ago

the DREAM Act is not for real dreamers.

ta12121 14y ago

Regarding the title, I assure you that the poor and the tired have a harder time immigrating to the U.S. than any entrepreneur.

dxbydt 14y ago

oh its a vivek wadhwa piece...if vivek says the sun rises from the east, i'm much more likely to believe it must be the west. vivek periodically writes these half baked partisan anecdote-ridden pieces & calls it "research"....as a former immigrant and a recipient of the so-called "genius visa" (EB1), i'm very sympathetic to the cause. yes, immigration to the USA is very hassly and the laws must be vastly simplified etc... but this won't do. this sort of article is akin to a startup job post on HN. "Immigration. Its broken! We must fix it. We are a group of yc founders who will build immigration from scratch in Ruby on Rails. For the harder parts we will ofcourse use PHP. You must be a rockstar immigrant with 100 years of immigration behind you. For bonus points, show me your immigration in github. Solve this immigration puzzle on our website using only backbone.js and coffeescript, and you can score an exclusive lunch with us, cooked by immigrants, catered by immigrants, exclusively for you, the immigrant. Don't forget to carry your H1B visas on your person, you never know when you might be deported! Apply already, but only after you decode our bcrypt secured ROT13 encrypted immigration email and pay processing fees of 13 dollars 26 cents exclusively in bitcoins". founding companies is not simply a matter of talent and risk-appetite, which, arguably, the STEM immigrant has more of. its also a matter of feeling secure with your finances, having a house in a good school district, having a CD or two for the rainy day, having some connections to the VC community, having the time & desire to hack up a prototype & blog about it & build a community & attract enough interest...all of which immigrants are less likely to do, given that we are already preoccupied with keeping a job, keeping our immigration papers in order, gradually building up savings, digging ourselves out of the negative equity hole that most of us are in because we borrowed money to get here in the first place...i could go on and on, but i won't. suffice it to say, the sun definitely rises in the west, because vivek has said its the east.

Zenst 14y ago

When I see a headline like this one I immediately think of this cartoon : http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/first_illegal_immigrants.jpg http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/... I chuckle a bit and then move onto the headline "America to immigrants: ‘Give me your tired, your poor’ but keep your entrepreneurs" Written by Vivek Wadhwa and chuckle some more. I then having got past the title got to read a rather insightful article about how it is easy to come and work in America and visa's for that exist. But if you which to start a company and as such have a situation were you have to apply for citizenship, then you could have a top 25 existing company in-play already employing American's and pay lots of TAX then you can still be told sorry no. That said there was mention of a % drop in immigrant started companies and this still points to them happening. I suspect the tighter limits has meant raising the bar beyond what it needs to be for many and with that perhaps a new type of VISA needs to be made. I don't know the whole American VISA system that well, but certainly some middle ground from worker VISA to citizen VISA to cater for those employing American's can be met. Maybe if they employ so many then they qualify. So for example if you can form a company and employ say 5 people full time then you are granted say a 5 year business VISA which is reviewed every 5 years to see that you meet checks and after say 3 period gain a full citizenship. Something like that, though a lot more detailed against loopholes I suspect. But still, very nice read and very good article, despite the interesting choice of title, albeit once you have read the article you will see why it is just on so many levels sadly.

0ren 14y ago

While I may agree that the US should do more to encourage immigrant entrepreneurs, I do not think that the author chose a good openning example. The author points to statistics about tech companies started by immigrants and presents Desai as part of the team that developed new technology, but Desai studied MBA and he was only doing an administrative job at IR Diagnostyx[0]. Moreover, the openning example does not seem to be precise; the author claims that Desai was not given an opportunity to start his business, which does not seem to be aligned with Desai being affiliated with IR Diagnostyx from 2009 to Feb 2012[1]. Furthermore, upon graduation in 2009, the US did give Desai 12 months of OPT[2], for which self-employment does qualify. In fact, if Desai had studied Science/Tech/Engineering/Math, he would have been give an an extension of 17 months of OPT[3], for a total of ~2.5 years to work on his business. [0] http://it-jobs.fins.com/Articles/SB130652363641519729/American-Dream-Fades-for-H-1B-Hopefuls http://it-jobs.fins.com/Articles/SB130652363641519729/Americ... [1] http://www.linkedin.com/in/hardikadesai http://www.linkedin.com/in/hardikadesai [2] Optional Practical Training, assuming he was on F1 visa as a student: http://icenter.stanford.edu/students/current/employment_faq.html http://icenter.stanford.edu/students/current/employment_faq.... [3] http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ff791c491861a110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f...

winter_blue 14y ago

Is anyone here rejoicing at the fact that due erroneous U.S. immigration policies India and China are suffering less brain drain??

photorized 14y ago

Re: "But the U.S. government wouldn’t provide Hardik with a visa to start the company. Hardik had no difficulty in getting an H1-B visa that allowed him to work, but immigration rules did not allow him to work for a company that he started. So, he abandoned his entrepreneurial dreams." Obstacles like this shouldn't stop an entrepreneur. I had to do the whole H1-B thing myself, while bootstrapping another business on the side - and there are no rules against that. I know others who did the same. Have a job, launch a company in your spare time.

mavelikara 14y ago
Was the startup you launched on the side profitable? Were you able to draw any income from it?

confluence 14y ago

Entrepreneurs are overvalued. Period. The glorification and, sometimes deification, of various entrepreneurs as almost single handedly bringing the world out of the darkness is complete bullshit and merely an example of the fundamental attribution error writ large (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). People just completely forget that a) the world is an incredibly complex system that rarely has single factor causes to various effects and b) that people just don't matter - the ecosystem that surrounds them matters much more. For example not worrying about personal security frees up employees to take more risk. A strong rule of law that attempts to equate wrongs allows people to focus on value added services rather than the fear of litigation. Access to cheap raw materials (plentiful mining/food/water) allows one to easily build things that would be quite simply uneconomical anywhere else. A capitalist system allows more niches to be profitably exploited than centrally planned economies. "Special innovative people" are by far the least of your worries. Systems matter more than any one person and anyone who gives you the "A player" talk is full of crap - "A player" yourself out of Afghanistan as a sick female and we'll see who's talking.

GNUAerospace 14y ago

“H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified US worker wants the job, and a US worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.” US Department of Labor The US government and corporations have sold you out as a US CITIZEN. See the proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&#38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&