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It's beyond vindictive at this point, this is a flat out anti-competitive move by Apple.

by capo 14y ago

swalsh 14y ago
Its true, I'm amazed they are able to get away with it too. Microsoft simply bundled software, but never did it outright prevent competition on its OS. Apples closed garden is outright blocking competition... How is no one looking into this?
- jamroom 14y ago
  Apple does not have a monopoly in the mobile OS space.
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    "Apple does not have a monopoly in the mobile OS space." That's not necessarily correct. To determine if they have a monopoly you need to look at the amount of software sold on each platform, not just the number of total devices for each OS.
  - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
    You're looking at the wrong market. The problematic market isn't mobile operating systems, it's the distribution of apps to iOS devices. By excluding other app stores from iOS, Apple has created itself a monopoly on the distribution of apps to its existing base of mobile device customers.
- dailyrorschach 14y ago
  As pointed out below 1) they don't have a monopoly. 2) It wasn't just the bundling of IE, but also the use of APIs to prefer and favor IE over third party browsers, and restrictive agreements with OEMs. Also part of the finding of fact in the case was the nature of how web browsers were obtained in that time period, long, slow downloads. Giving the bundled option a serious advantage. But again before we even get into the anticompetitive-ness of Apple, which no doubt many of their practices are, without a monopoly, it's fair play.
  - stanleydrew 14y ago
    I know this is the obvious rebuttal that everyone trots out when asked about anticompetitive behavior from Apple. But I'm not sure it's actually true. I am not a lawyer, but I think you can be brought up on charges of anticompetitive behavior without "having a monopoly". Can someone with more knowledge in this area comment?
    - dailyrorschach 14y ago
      IANAL either, but I have looked into this quite a bit. There are other ways anticompetitive behavior can be prosecuted, but they don't seem to apply to what Apple is doing here: http://www.ftc.gov/bc/edu/pubs/consumer/general/zgen01.pdf http://www.ftc.gov/bc/edu/pubs/consumer/general/zgen01.pdf That PDF provides a pretty good summary of the FTCs scope, and under the current mobile market, it doesn't seem like they'd have any reason to involve themselves, especially when alternatives readily exist.
- melling 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish Apple has 25% mobile market share. Android has 50%. Microsoft has about 90% desktop market share for over a decade. DirectX was made to kill off OpenGL. C# was made to kill off Java and keep software running on Windows. Microsoft killed of Netscape and a decade later IE6 isn't completely dead. http://www.ie6countdown.com/ http://www.ie6countdown.com/ Android isn't going away and by my estimate it will always have more market share than iOS. Btw, Microsoft completely killed of all other PC operating systems when they required PC vendors to pay for shipping DOS, regardless of the OS they actually shipped.
  - duiker101 14y ago
    C# was made to kill Java as Apple maps were made to Kill Google Maps but they did not prevent Java from being installed, which is what apple is doing. If they want to win by keeping the loyalty of the users they should not cut off all competition but just release a better product than the competition. Apple successed in this in the last years but the more time passes the more I see they are struggling with it, the prefer to kill off any other opportunity, but this will enrage users(at least those who were not brainwashed)
    - melling 14y ago
      That analogy is completely wrong. When companies write apps in C# for the Microsoft platform, they are going to pretty much stay on the Microsoft platform. Those apps, for the most part, aren't ported to the Mac and Linux (please skip the Mono discussion, it's not a 100% solution). Fortune 500 companies and commercial companies are locking consumers into Windows. Maps is one product. There are thousands of C#, Windows only apps.
      - dpark 14y ago
        When companies write apps in Objective-C for the Mac or iOS platforms, they are going to pretty much stay on the Apple platforms. Those apps, for the most part, aren't ported to the Windows and Linux (please skip the GCC discussion, it's not a 100% solution). Fortune 500 companies and commercial companies are locking consumers into Apple. There are thousands of Objective-C, Apple only apps.
- coliveira 14y ago
  The difference between Microsoft and Apple is that Microsoft was controlling (or trying to control) the whole ecosystem of PC makers. Apple doesn't want to do this, exactly because they don't want to open their platform for other players the way Microsoft used to do. What they want is to maintain tight control over their closed systems (iOS/MacOS X). And this is not really news, Apple always played by these rules and their customers know how it works. This way of operating is what most tech commentators don't really understand. I think the beauty of this strategy is that you don't need to have a monopoly to make the most profits. At any time, there will be a majority of the market using other products, but since Apple is optimizing their platform for quality and high profit margin, they will command the leadership in profits (if they continue doing good products that maintain their customers happy, I mean).
arrrg 14y ago
I do not understand how this is anti-competitive. Please explain.
- duiker101 14y ago
  Because this is like a child that cries and scream that he is the best. A competitive behaviour would be releasing an actually decent app and let the users choose what to use.
  - arrrg 14y ago
    How does that relate to the concept of anti-competitiveness? I do not see the connection.
    - jfoutz 14y ago
      Maybe it's an issue of meaning. "Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market" I think, the app store is a market. I also think, blocking, or even just delaying, entry to the market is anti competitive. Google appears to be ready to go. Maybe their app violates the app store agreement somehow, and it's bouncing through the review process. Nonetheless, as an external observer, it looks like apple is dragging its feet. A review takes about two weeks, right? Four+ iterations seems like a lot.
      - arrrg 14y ago
        Why the hell is the App Store a market?
        jfoutz 14y ago
        I think "A market is one of many varieties of systems, institutions, procedures, social relations and infrastructures whereby parties engage in exchange. While parties may exchange goods and services by barter, most markets rely on sellers offering their goods or services (including labor) in exchange for money from buyers." It seems to me there are many buyers and sellers in the app store. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point, but i'd be interested in you explaining your point of view. Hopefully, you would be kind enough to use more than 10 syllables.

It's beyond vindictive at this point, this is a flat out anti-competitive move by Apple.

by capo 14y ago

It's beyond vindictive at this point, this is a flat out anti-competitive move by Apple.

Its true, I'm amazed they are able to get away with it too. Microsoft simply bundled software, but never did it outright prevent competition on its OS. Apples closed garden is outright blocking competition... How is no one looking into this?

jamroom 14y ago
Apple does not have a monopoly in the mobile OS space.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "Apple does not have a monopoly in the mobile OS space." That's not necessarily correct. To determine if they have a monopoly you need to look at the amount of software sold on each platform, not just the number of total devices for each OS.
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  You're looking at the wrong market. The problematic market isn't mobile operating systems, it's the distribution of apps to iOS devices. By excluding other app stores from iOS, Apple has created itself a monopoly on the distribution of apps to its existing base of mobile device customers.
dailyrorschach 14y ago
As pointed out below 1) they don't have a monopoly. 2) It wasn't just the bundling of IE, but also the use of APIs to prefer and favor IE over third party browsers, and restrictive agreements with OEMs. Also part of the finding of fact in the case was the nature of how web browsers were obtained in that time period, long, slow downloads. Giving the bundled option a serious advantage. But again before we even get into the anticompetitive-ness of Apple, which no doubt many of their practices are, without a monopoly, it's fair play.
- stanleydrew 14y ago
  I know this is the obvious rebuttal that everyone trots out when asked about anticompetitive behavior from Apple. But I'm not sure it's actually true. I am not a lawyer, but I think you can be brought up on charges of anticompetitive behavior without "having a monopoly". Can someone with more knowledge in this area comment?
  - dailyrorschach 14y ago
    IANAL either, but I have looked into this quite a bit. There are other ways anticompetitive behavior can be prosecuted, but they don't seem to apply to what Apple is doing here: http://www.ftc.gov/bc/edu/pubs/consumer/general/zgen01.pdf http://www.ftc.gov/bc/edu/pubs/consumer/general/zgen01.pdf That PDF provides a pretty good summary of the FTCs scope, and under the current mobile market, it doesn't seem like they'd have any reason to involve themselves, especially when alternatives readily exist.
melling 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish Apple has 25% mobile market share. Android has 50%. Microsoft has about 90% desktop market share for over a decade. DirectX was made to kill off OpenGL. C# was made to kill off Java and keep software running on Windows. Microsoft killed of Netscape and a decade later IE6 isn't completely dead. http://www.ie6countdown.com/ http://www.ie6countdown.com/ Android isn't going away and by my estimate it will always have more market share than iOS. Btw, Microsoft completely killed of all other PC operating systems when they required PC vendors to pay for shipping DOS, regardless of the OS they actually shipped.
- duiker101 14y ago
  C# was made to kill Java as Apple maps were made to Kill Google Maps but they did not prevent Java from being installed, which is what apple is doing. If they want to win by keeping the loyalty of the users they should not cut off all competition but just release a better product than the competition. Apple successed in this in the last years but the more time passes the more I see they are struggling with it, the prefer to kill off any other opportunity, but this will enrage users(at least those who were not brainwashed)
  - melling 14y ago
    That analogy is completely wrong. When companies write apps in C# for the Microsoft platform, they are going to pretty much stay on the Microsoft platform. Those apps, for the most part, aren't ported to the Mac and Linux (please skip the Mono discussion, it's not a 100% solution). Fortune 500 companies and commercial companies are locking consumers into Windows. Maps is one product. There are thousands of C#, Windows only apps.
    - dpark 14y ago
      When companies write apps in Objective-C for the Mac or iOS platforms, they are going to pretty much stay on the Apple platforms. Those apps, for the most part, aren't ported to the Windows and Linux (please skip the GCC discussion, it's not a 100% solution). Fortune 500 companies and commercial companies are locking consumers into Apple. There are thousands of Objective-C, Apple only apps.
coliveira 14y ago
The difference between Microsoft and Apple is that Microsoft was controlling (or trying to control) the whole ecosystem of PC makers. Apple doesn't want to do this, exactly because they don't want to open their platform for other players the way Microsoft used to do. What they want is to maintain tight control over their closed systems (iOS/MacOS X). And this is not really news, Apple always played by these rules and their customers know how it works. This way of operating is what most tech commentators don't really understand. I think the beauty of this strategy is that you don't need to have a monopoly to make the most profits. At any time, there will be a majority of the market using other products, but since Apple is optimizing their platform for quality and high profit margin, they will command the leadership in profits (if they continue doing good products that maintain their customers happy, I mean).

arrrg 14y ago

I do not understand how this is anti-competitive. Please explain.

duiker101 14y ago
Because this is like a child that cries and scream that he is the best. A competitive behaviour would be releasing an actually decent app and let the users choose what to use.
- arrrg 14y ago
  How does that relate to the concept of anti-competitiveness? I do not see the connection.
  - jfoutz 14y ago
    Maybe it's an issue of meaning. "Anti-competitive practices are business or government practices that prevent or reduce competition in a market" I think, the app store is a market. I also think, blocking, or even just delaying, entry to the market is anti competitive. Google appears to be ready to go. Maybe their app violates the app store agreement somehow, and it's bouncing through the review process. Nonetheless, as an external observer, it looks like apple is dragging its feet. A review takes about two weeks, right? Four+ iterations seems like a lot.
    - arrrg 14y ago
      Why the hell is the App Store a market?
      - jfoutz 14y ago
        I think "A market is one of many varieties of systems, institutions, procedures, social relations and infrastructures whereby parties engage in exchange. While parties may exchange goods and services by barter, most markets rely on sellers offering their goods or services (including labor) in exchange for money from buyers." It seems to me there are many buyers and sellers in the app store. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point, but i'd be interested in you explaining your point of view. Hopefully, you would be kind enough to use more than 10 syllables.