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Hydro energy generation is fairly built out, but the Nordics have lots of places suitable to build out hydro energy storage. Hydro generation requires a flow

Hydro energy generation is fairly built out, but the Nordics have lots of places suitable to build out hydro energy storage. Hydro generation requires a flow to dam, but storage doesn't.

magicalhippo 11mo ago
True, but that disrupts ecosystems. Or so the argument against go building storage dams go. That said, there's been a fair bit of talk here in Norway recently about tax incentives blocking hydro owners from upgrading old generators, improving efficency. Apparently a lot of currently unused power available if they "just" did that.
- tempestn 11mo ago
  I wonder if it's possible to also increase the amount of generation on existing dams? I could imagine there being situations where there's excess peak flow capacity but it isn't utilized because the flow rate would be unsustainable. But if we're looking for storage it could make sense.
- foota 11mo ago
  I think hydro storage is a lot less disruptive because you don't need as much space. Traditional hydro reservoirs have to last all season.
Tuna-Fish 11mo ago
We don't really. Hydro storage requires reservoirs where you can freely adjust the water level. Most of our lakes have shorelines that have been built out, and the property owners get really angry if you suggest frequently adjusting the water level significantly. The largest planned hydro storage projects are using decommissioned mines, and those are going to run out quickly.
- bryanlarsen 11mo ago
  You could use the ocean for the bottom level and an artificial reservoir for the top level. You're not going to noticeably affect ocean levels. Or just use a large lake. You're not going to noticeably affect the water levels of a large lake. You might pump 10 billion litres of water, which is .02% of the volume of Mjøsa.
  - vkou 11mo ago
    > You could use the ocean for the bottom level and an artificial reservoir for the top level. You're not going to noticeably affect ocean levels. Then you have to deal with the problem of sea water corroding everything it touches. > You might pump 10 billion litres of water, which is .02% of the volume of Mjøsa. It's not the amount of water that you pump, it's the amount * the elevation delta. Where are you planning on getting the elevation delta from? Neither of these challenges is technically insurmountable, but this is a field where capex + opex/KWH is everything.
    - bryanlarsen 11mo ago
      > Where are you planning on getting the elevation delta from? Elevation delta is not hard to find in Norway! A typical pumped storage facility uses 100m of delta; I imagine Norwegian ones would use more. > but this is a field where capex + opex/KWH is everything. And pumped storage is significantly cheaper for seasonal storage than any proposed alternatives. The original post is efficient for heat storage, but converting low grade heat to electricity is not efficient.
      - skybrian 11mo ago
        For some applications, you don't actually convert the heat to electricity. This sounds pretty cheap if it works out: https://austinvernon.site/blog/standardthermal.html https://austinvernon.site/blog/standardthermal.html
      - kmacdough 11mo ago
        > A typical pumped storage facility uses 100m of delta Most projects seek 200-600m. This map doesn't even consider pumped hydro <200m: https://maps.nrel.gov/psh https://maps.nrel.gov/psh > And pumped storage is significantly cheaper for seasonal storage than any proposed alternatives. Based on what? Cost is particularly variable for pumped hydro. It can be one of the cheaper options when stars align. But you need 1) a suitable geography that minimizes the cost of damming or digging a resivoir with sufficient head 2) available for development without too much backlash 3) Near enough grid resources to minimize infrastructure and line losses. I'm surely leaving pieces out. It can be cheap, but it has far more hoops to jump than alternatives like batteries, hot sand and other "storage-in-a-building" designs which can be built where needed and using fairly standard industrial construction.
- fifilura 11mo ago
  You could just build a back-channel for the existing hydro-dams? Those reservoirs are only full for a short period and that is when you dont need pump energy.
  - 2000UltraDeluxe 11mo ago
    But where? In Finland, at least, the land is relatively flat when compared with Norway and Sweden, and with a large rural population there aren't really any good locations. In my local area, we had major flooding this spring because the hydro plant operators were sleeping on the job (or whatever they did instead of regulating water levels). And that was a simple 2m increase in water levels. NO/SE have some more geographically suitable locations, but last time I checked, flooding them was considered too environmentally destructive too the local environment.
    - vidarh 11mo ago
      Yeah, you're right regarding the environmental concerns. Most of Norway's hydro dams were built a long time ago when there was little focus on the environmental effects. The last major plant went live in 1993. Most of the focus now is on far smaller schemes, that doesn't really add up to a lot compared to Norway's established generating capacity (which outstrip the total electricity use anyway), but which also meet far less opposition. Part of the reason for that was growing local opposition to larger plants, and sometimes national opposition, culminating with the Alta controversy[1] in the late 70's that were some of the largest civil protests in Norway since the end of WW2. The protests eventually failed, but it had a lasting effect on Norwegian politics. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_controversy
    - fifilura 11mo ago
      If you pump the water back into the existing reserviors you will have less flooding? I suggested a pump-water extension to existing hydro power reservoirs. Like your EV recharges when you release the pedal. Right shouldn't talk about EVs with a Finn, that analogy will not fly. Ok, like if you plan carefully where you throw up your koskenkorva you can re-use it.
beambot 11mo ago
Hydro doesn't work so well when things freeze over. Geothermal on the other hand...
- bryanlarsen 11mo ago
  It doesn't get cold enough for long enough for lakes to freeze solid.
  - bawolff 11mo ago
    I imagine the thaw/freeze cycle would be hell on the equipment to run pumped hydro storage. Are there extant succesful examples of pumped hydro in cold regions?
    - gpm 11mo ago
      > Are there extant succesful examples of pumped hydro in cold regions? There's some pumped hydro at Niagara falls in Canada, which is far enough North that it should see a bit of a that/freeze cycle but is still a relatively mild climate. Don't know anything about what issues this does/doesn't present to them, just happen to know it exists.
      - numbsafari 11mo ago
        For reference, Niagara Falls is at roughly the same latitude as Barcelona and Milan. Vääksy, Finland, is approximately 1,250 miles (2k km) north of there, slightly north of Anchorage, Alaska.
        gpm 11mo ago
        Latitude is a poor point of comparison here, North America tends to be substantially colder than Europe at the same latitude. Or concretely Niagara Falls goes from an average low of -6.44 C in February to 21.0 C in July. Barcelona an average low of 4 C in January to 20.2 C in August (according to the internet). But yes, it's warmer than Finland, just cold enough to see something of a freeze that cycle.

Hydro energy generation is fairly built out, but the Nordics have lots of places suitable to build out hydro energy storage. Hydro generation requires a flow to dam, but storage doesn't.

magicalhippo 11mo ago

True, but that disrupts ecosystems. Or so the argument against go building storage dams go. That said, there's been a fair bit of talk here in Norway recently about tax incentives blocking hydro owners from upgrading old generators, improving efficency. Apparently a lot of currently unused power available if they "just" did that.

tempestn 11mo ago
I wonder if it's possible to also increase the amount of generation on existing dams? I could imagine there being situations where there's excess peak flow capacity but it isn't utilized because the flow rate would be unsustainable. But if we're looking for storage it could make sense.
foota 11mo ago
I think hydro storage is a lot less disruptive because you don't need as much space. Traditional hydro reservoirs have to last all season.

Tuna-Fish 11mo ago

We don't really. Hydro storage requires reservoirs where you can freely adjust the water level. Most of our lakes have shorelines that have been built out, and the property owners get really angry if you suggest frequently adjusting the water level significantly. The largest planned hydro storage projects are using decommissioned mines, and those are going to run out quickly.

bryanlarsen 11mo ago
You could use the ocean for the bottom level and an artificial reservoir for the top level. You're not going to noticeably affect ocean levels. Or just use a large lake. You're not going to noticeably affect the water levels of a large lake. You might pump 10 billion litres of water, which is .02% of the volume of Mjøsa.
- vkou 11mo ago
  > You could use the ocean for the bottom level and an artificial reservoir for the top level. You're not going to noticeably affect ocean levels. Then you have to deal with the problem of sea water corroding everything it touches. > You might pump 10 billion litres of water, which is .02% of the volume of Mjøsa. It's not the amount of water that you pump, it's the amount * the elevation delta. Where are you planning on getting the elevation delta from? Neither of these challenges is technically insurmountable, but this is a field where capex + opex/KWH is everything.
  - bryanlarsen 11mo ago
    > Where are you planning on getting the elevation delta from? Elevation delta is not hard to find in Norway! A typical pumped storage facility uses 100m of delta; I imagine Norwegian ones would use more. > but this is a field where capex + opex/KWH is everything. And pumped storage is significantly cheaper for seasonal storage than any proposed alternatives. The original post is efficient for heat storage, but converting low grade heat to electricity is not efficient.
    - skybrian 11mo ago
      For some applications, you don't actually convert the heat to electricity. This sounds pretty cheap if it works out: https://austinvernon.site/blog/standardthermal.html https://austinvernon.site/blog/standardthermal.html
    - kmacdough 11mo ago
      > A typical pumped storage facility uses 100m of delta Most projects seek 200-600m. This map doesn't even consider pumped hydro <200m: https://maps.nrel.gov/psh https://maps.nrel.gov/psh > And pumped storage is significantly cheaper for seasonal storage than any proposed alternatives. Based on what? Cost is particularly variable for pumped hydro. It can be one of the cheaper options when stars align. But you need 1) a suitable geography that minimizes the cost of damming or digging a resivoir with sufficient head 2) available for development without too much backlash 3) Near enough grid resources to minimize infrastructure and line losses. I'm surely leaving pieces out. It can be cheap, but it has far more hoops to jump than alternatives like batteries, hot sand and other "storage-in-a-building" designs which can be built where needed and using fairly standard industrial construction.
fifilura 11mo ago
You could just build a back-channel for the existing hydro-dams? Those reservoirs are only full for a short period and that is when you dont need pump energy.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 11mo ago
  But where? In Finland, at least, the land is relatively flat when compared with Norway and Sweden, and with a large rural population there aren't really any good locations. In my local area, we had major flooding this spring because the hydro plant operators were sleeping on the job (or whatever they did instead of regulating water levels). And that was a simple 2m increase in water levels. NO/SE have some more geographically suitable locations, but last time I checked, flooding them was considered too environmentally destructive too the local environment.
  - vidarh 11mo ago
    Yeah, you're right regarding the environmental concerns. Most of Norway's hydro dams were built a long time ago when there was little focus on the environmental effects. The last major plant went live in 1993. Most of the focus now is on far smaller schemes, that doesn't really add up to a lot compared to Norway's established generating capacity (which outstrip the total electricity use anyway), but which also meet far less opposition. Part of the reason for that was growing local opposition to larger plants, and sometimes national opposition, culminating with the Alta controversy[1] in the late 70's that were some of the largest civil protests in Norway since the end of WW2. The protests eventually failed, but it had a lasting effect on Norwegian politics. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_controversy
  - fifilura 11mo ago
    If you pump the water back into the existing reserviors you will have less flooding? I suggested a pump-water extension to existing hydro power reservoirs. Like your EV recharges when you release the pedal. Right shouldn't talk about EVs with a Finn, that analogy will not fly. Ok, like if you plan carefully where you throw up your koskenkorva you can re-use it.

beambot 11mo ago

Hydro doesn't work so well when things freeze over. Geothermal on the other hand...

bryanlarsen 11mo ago
It doesn't get cold enough for long enough for lakes to freeze solid.
- bawolff 11mo ago
  I imagine the thaw/freeze cycle would be hell on the equipment to run pumped hydro storage. Are there extant succesful examples of pumped hydro in cold regions?
  - gpm 11mo ago
    > Are there extant succesful examples of pumped hydro in cold regions? There's some pumped hydro at Niagara falls in Canada, which is far enough North that it should see a bit of a that/freeze cycle but is still a relatively mild climate. Don't know anything about what issues this does/doesn't present to them, just happen to know it exists.
    - numbsafari 11mo ago
      For reference, Niagara Falls is at roughly the same latitude as Barcelona and Milan. Vääksy, Finland, is approximately 1,250 miles (2k km) north of there, slightly north of Anchorage, Alaska.
      - gpm 11mo ago
        Latitude is a poor point of comparison here, North America tends to be substantially colder than Europe at the same latitude. Or concretely Niagara Falls goes from an average low of -6.44 C in February to 21.0 C in July. Barcelona an average low of 4 C in January to 20.2 C in August (according to the internet). But yes, it's warmer than Finland, just cold enough to see something of a freeze that cycle.