6 ms·

Cherry gives up German production and wants to sell core division

83 points by jsheard 11mo ago

ch_123 11mo ago
A little over a decade ago, the patents expired on the MX switch design. The first clones (mostly from China) were cheap and terrible. Then came the ones which were cheap and almost as good. Then came the ones which were better than the originals, and eventually the ones which were more innovative too. Meanwhile, Cherry kept making the same product line which they had since the 1980s, with relatively minor improvements.
- donquichotte 11mo ago
  Interesting, do you have any examples of the latter two categories? Looking for a replacement for my Cherry-Keyboard.
  - Ekaros 11mo ago
    I think magnetic hall-effect switches in standard keyboard are interesting innovation. Basically allows you to tune at what point of key press they activate.
  - TheChaplain 11mo ago
    Well, there's Gateron and Keychron.. But from what I gather Cherry still are considered the choice if you want longevity.
    - IgorPartola 11mo ago
      Cherry are more expensive than the rest but honestly I didn’t love the feeling of their keys. To be fair I was after a particular feel of very clicky keys. For longevity I don’t feel the need to really differentiate between 100,000 actuations and like 500,000. Both are long enough and I don’t mind replacing the switches in a few years because let’s face it, it can be fun to try some of the new stuff and switching things up.
  - chasil 11mo ago
    I found a mini-keyboard from dealnews.com for $20 with multicolor LEDs, that seems reliable. I found another at Best Buy with red LEDs, but otherwise similar, and I gave it to my coworker. He wore all the letters off the keycaps before he retired and took it home, but it was otherwise reliable. I think these were both blue switch-based. Several genuine Cherry keyboards were in the e-waste pile at work, so I rescued them. I am using one on a test PC with rhel8. https://www.dealnews.com/Redragon-S107-BA-Gaming-Keyboard-and-Mouse-Combo-for-27-free-shipping-w-35/21787178.html https://www.dealnews.com/Redragon-S107-BA-Gaming-Keyboard-an... https://www.dealnews.com/Aula-F75-Gaming-Mechanical-Keyboard-for-35-free-shipping/21787020.html https://www.dealnews.com/Aula-F75-Gaming-Mechanical-Keyboard... https://www.dealnews.com/K4-RGB-Tenkeyless-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-for-25-free-shipping-w-Prime/21784442.html https://www.dealnews.com/K4-RGB-Tenkeyless-Mechanical-Gaming... I wish that Cherry could get a cut of these.
  - ch_123 11mo ago
    In this case, I'm talking specifically about the switches. There are various options from Gateron, Kailh and Outemu (including switches made by these companies but sold under different brands) which are widely regarded as superior to Cherry's options. In terms of keyboards, a good all-rounder suggestion is to take a look at some options from Keychron.
  - amyjess 11mo ago
    IMO Outemu blues are better than Cherry's. They're actually clickier.
  - bolangi 11mo ago
    Unicomp took over the IBM buckling keyboard manufacturing. I like their clicky keys, but now their Model M costs US $189, a bit high.
- Ekaros 11mo ago
  Bought first board with swappable switches this month. And bit later about 70 different samples from Ali. Just the cheer quantity of that number is crazy to me. Have to figure out if there is anything there when they arrive. But I think that is not even inclusive of some more expensive chinese brands. Still, it is another interesting example how something can end up standard. That is the pin layout and the stem for keycap.
  - jsheard 11mo ago
    > Just the cheer quantity of that number is crazy to me. The count is a bit inflated because different colorways of the same design by the same manufacturer are often sold as "different" switches, but even if you filter those duplicates out there's still a ton of distinct ones out there.
- stockresearcher 11mo ago
  > Cherry kept making the same product line which they had since the 1980s, with relatively minor improvements. Cherry was an American company that manufactured in the US until the automotive division was sold to a German company with keyboard switches thrown in. They moved production to Germany to capitalize on the perception of German quality. So, it’s not really surprising that it stagnated - it was a somewhat unwanted portion of a company and all the original folks got left behind.
  - Phelinofist 11mo ago
    > was sold to a German company... So, it’s not really surprising that it stagnated As a German I _really_ feel this
    - riedel 11mo ago
      Same here. Minor iterative engineering innovation has been the main theme for years in Germany. Somehow hoping for a wakeup call, but it is hard to be optimistic these days.
      - JLO64 11mo ago
        Not a tech company, but I feel strongly about this when it comes to LAMY (a fountain pen company). As far as I can tell their pens (notably the Safari and 2000) have stayed almost exactly the same for the past 40 years! The only thing they tweak in these pens are the limited edition colors, which for the Safari they're releasing probably 3+ per year. I once met a guy who had a collection of over 50 Safari pens so I guess that market works out for them…
        bryanrasmussen 11mo ago
        on the other hand, I am curious as to what the perception is of technical improvements in fountain pens in the past 40 years that they are not following?
        riedel 11mo ago
- spongebobism 11mo ago
  Is it so bad to stick with a product that works? I use a Cherry KC200 MX specifically because it is a simple office keyboard.
constantcrying 11mo ago
At this point it seems inevitable that most of Europe is going to experience severe economic struggles. Manufacturing in Germany is dying, making anything which is cost competitive is impossible and the measures trying to fix it are miniscule compared to the magnitude of the problem.
- dinkblam 11mo ago
  > Manufacturing in Germany is dying no surprise given the high taxes, extreme energy prices, massive bureaucracy, ridiculous regulations, work-hating employees and extremely business-hostile culture
  - cdmckay 11mo ago
    I think it’s mostly the loss of Nord Stream
    - AlexandrB 11mo ago
      It's the loss of Germany's last nuclear plants in 2023[1]. For a country supposedly aiming for net zero the shutdown of their nuclear infrastructure was a huge "own goal". Really sad to see. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/15/europe/germany-nuclear-phase-out-climate-intl https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/15/europe/germany-nuclear-phase-...
      - cenamus 11mo ago
        Strange that the share pf renewables has beem steadily increasing
    - Phil_Latio 11mo ago
      It's just one piece of the puzzle. The cost for Co2 certificates is a more major reason. Starting 2027, hedge funds can buy these certificates which will be the nail in the coffin. It's basically Bitcoin on steroids with the difference that people buy Bitcoin out of free will, while the industry is forced to buy these certificates which get more scarce over time.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
casenmgreen 11mo ago
Historically, before I went to laptop, I always bought Cherry. I was looking for a portable external keeb recently, and I looked to Cherry and they simply had nothing which even approximately matched the form factor I needed. I wanted to buy from them, but couldn't.
- beAbU 11mo ago
  Cherry's speciality is switches, not keyboards. This is like trying to buy a car made by goodyear.
  - casenmgreen 11mo ago
    It was only quite recently I understood the profile of the keycaps was actually something you could buy elsewhere, and then I realized I could in effect compose the keyboard I wanted.
valadaptive 11mo ago
> The patent for the Cherry MX design finally expired in 2014. OK, but did it really? I've seen this claim pop up occasionally, but nobody ever points to the patent in question. A quick Google search for "cherry mx patent 2014" shows the oldest result as being a Reddit comment from 2017 (https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6am47a/comment/dhfv77c/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6am47a/comment/dh...): > The patent expired in 2014. Many people have been paying the same price for mechanical keyboards with cheaper Chinese MX switches without knowing. And an Ars Technica article from 2023 (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/hands-on-with-cherry-mx2a-switches-a-lot-less-wobble-a-little-more-confusion/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/hands-on-with-cherry...): > For 20 years, Cherry’s patent on mechanical switches made it the only player around. That patent’s expiration around 2014, though, released the floodgates and allowed countless copycats and switches with varying levels of modification to the cross-stem design to pour in. However, what seems to be the actual Cherry MX switch patent (US4467160A) was filed in 1983 and expired all the way back in 2003. So what exactly expired in 2014?
- DiabloD3 11mo ago
  That line is wild, btw. We've been paying less and actively avoiding lower quality Cherry branded MX compatible switches. There is no reason to ever pay Cherry's pricing when Kalih and Gateron completely control that market now. Also, the patent they're discussing, afaik, isn't MX specific, but more a specific thing in how Cherry's switches work (including the MX). Kalih and Gateron both built their businesses on making patent-avoiding designs that are superior.
Jeff-Collins 11mo ago
[dead]
keithnz 11mo ago
that website is horrible, you can't reject the advertising cookies

83 points by jsheard 11mo ago

ch_123 11mo ago

A little over a decade ago, the patents expired on the MX switch design. The first clones (mostly from China) were cheap and terrible. Then came the ones which were cheap and almost as good. Then came the ones which were better than the originals, and eventually the ones which were more innovative too. Meanwhile, Cherry kept making the same product line which they had since the 1980s, with relatively minor improvements.

donquichotte 11mo ago
Interesting, do you have any examples of the latter two categories? Looking for a replacement for my Cherry-Keyboard.
- Ekaros 11mo ago
  I think magnetic hall-effect switches in standard keyboard are interesting innovation. Basically allows you to tune at what point of key press they activate.
- TheChaplain 11mo ago
  Well, there's Gateron and Keychron.. But from what I gather Cherry still are considered the choice if you want longevity.
  - IgorPartola 11mo ago
    Cherry are more expensive than the rest but honestly I didn’t love the feeling of their keys. To be fair I was after a particular feel of very clicky keys. For longevity I don’t feel the need to really differentiate between 100,000 actuations and like 500,000. Both are long enough and I don’t mind replacing the switches in a few years because let’s face it, it can be fun to try some of the new stuff and switching things up.
- chasil 11mo ago
  I found a mini-keyboard from dealnews.com for $20 with multicolor LEDs, that seems reliable. I found another at Best Buy with red LEDs, but otherwise similar, and I gave it to my coworker. He wore all the letters off the keycaps before he retired and took it home, but it was otherwise reliable. I think these were both blue switch-based. Several genuine Cherry keyboards were in the e-waste pile at work, so I rescued them. I am using one on a test PC with rhel8. https://www.dealnews.com/Redragon-S107-BA-Gaming-Keyboard-and-Mouse-Combo-for-27-free-shipping-w-35/21787178.html https://www.dealnews.com/Redragon-S107-BA-Gaming-Keyboard-an... https://www.dealnews.com/Aula-F75-Gaming-Mechanical-Keyboard-for-35-free-shipping/21787020.html https://www.dealnews.com/Aula-F75-Gaming-Mechanical-Keyboard... https://www.dealnews.com/K4-RGB-Tenkeyless-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard-for-25-free-shipping-w-Prime/21784442.html https://www.dealnews.com/K4-RGB-Tenkeyless-Mechanical-Gaming... I wish that Cherry could get a cut of these.
- ch_123 11mo ago
  In this case, I'm talking specifically about the switches. There are various options from Gateron, Kailh and Outemu (including switches made by these companies but sold under different brands) which are widely regarded as superior to Cherry's options. In terms of keyboards, a good all-rounder suggestion is to take a look at some options from Keychron.
- amyjess 11mo ago
  IMO Outemu blues are better than Cherry's. They're actually clickier.
- bolangi 11mo ago
  Unicomp took over the IBM buckling keyboard manufacturing. I like their clicky keys, but now their Model M costs US $189, a bit high.
Ekaros 11mo ago
Bought first board with swappable switches this month. And bit later about 70 different samples from Ali. Just the cheer quantity of that number is crazy to me. Have to figure out if there is anything there when they arrive. But I think that is not even inclusive of some more expensive chinese brands. Still, it is another interesting example how something can end up standard. That is the pin layout and the stem for keycap.
- jsheard 11mo ago
  > Just the cheer quantity of that number is crazy to me. The count is a bit inflated because different colorways of the same design by the same manufacturer are often sold as "different" switches, but even if you filter those duplicates out there's still a ton of distinct ones out there.
stockresearcher 11mo ago
> Cherry kept making the same product line which they had since the 1980s, with relatively minor improvements. Cherry was an American company that manufactured in the US until the automotive division was sold to a German company with keyboard switches thrown in. They moved production to Germany to capitalize on the perception of German quality. So, it’s not really surprising that it stagnated - it was a somewhat unwanted portion of a company and all the original folks got left behind.
- Phelinofist 11mo ago
  > was sold to a German company... So, it’s not really surprising that it stagnated As a German I _really_ feel this
  - riedel 11mo ago
    Same here. Minor iterative engineering innovation has been the main theme for years in Germany. Somehow hoping for a wakeup call, but it is hard to be optimistic these days.
    - JLO64 11mo ago
      Not a tech company, but I feel strongly about this when it comes to LAMY (a fountain pen company). As far as I can tell their pens (notably the Safari and 2000) have stayed almost exactly the same for the past 40 years! The only thing they tweak in these pens are the limited edition colors, which for the Safari they're releasing probably 3+ per year. I once met a guy who had a collection of over 50 Safari pens so I guess that market works out for them…
      - bryanrasmussen 11mo ago
        on the other hand, I am curious as to what the perception is of technical improvements in fountain pens in the past 40 years that they are not following?
      - riedel 11mo ago
spongebobism 11mo ago
Is it so bad to stick with a product that works? I use a Cherry KC200 MX specifically because it is a simple office keyboard.

constantcrying 11mo ago

At this point it seems inevitable that most of Europe is going to experience severe economic struggles. Manufacturing in Germany is dying, making anything which is cost competitive is impossible and the measures trying to fix it are miniscule compared to the magnitude of the problem.

dinkblam 11mo ago
> Manufacturing in Germany is dying no surprise given the high taxes, extreme energy prices, massive bureaucracy, ridiculous regulations, work-hating employees and extremely business-hostile culture
- cdmckay 11mo ago
  I think it’s mostly the loss of Nord Stream
  - AlexandrB 11mo ago
    It's the loss of Germany's last nuclear plants in 2023[1]. For a country supposedly aiming for net zero the shutdown of their nuclear infrastructure was a huge "own goal". Really sad to see. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/15/europe/germany-nuclear-phase-out-climate-intl https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/15/europe/germany-nuclear-phase-...
    - cenamus 11mo ago
      Strange that the share pf renewables has beem steadily increasing
  - Phil_Latio 11mo ago
    It's just one piece of the puzzle. The cost for Co2 certificates is a more major reason. Starting 2027, hedge funds can buy these certificates which will be the nail in the coffin. It's basically Bitcoin on steroids with the difference that people buy Bitcoin out of free will, while the industry is forced to buy these certificates which get more scarce over time.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

casenmgreen 11mo ago

Historically, before I went to laptop, I always bought Cherry. I was looking for a portable external keeb recently, and I looked to Cherry and they simply had nothing which even approximately matched the form factor I needed. I wanted to buy from them, but couldn't.

beAbU 11mo ago
Cherry's speciality is switches, not keyboards. This is like trying to buy a car made by goodyear.
- casenmgreen 11mo ago
  It was only quite recently I understood the profile of the keycaps was actually something you could buy elsewhere, and then I realized I could in effect compose the keyboard I wanted.

valadaptive 11mo ago

> The patent for the Cherry MX design finally expired in 2014. OK, but did it really? I've seen this claim pop up occasionally, but nobody ever points to the patent in question. A quick Google search for "cherry mx patent 2014" shows the oldest result as being a Reddit comment from 2017 (https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6am47a/comment/dhfv77c/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6am47a/comment/dh...): > The patent expired in 2014. Many people have been paying the same price for mechanical keyboards with cheaper Chinese MX switches without knowing. And an Ars Technica article from 2023 (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/hands-on-with-cherry-mx2a-switches-a-lot-less-wobble-a-little-more-confusion/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/08/hands-on-with-cherry...): > For 20 years, Cherry’s patent on mechanical switches made it the only player around. That patent’s expiration around 2014, though, released the floodgates and allowed countless copycats and switches with varying levels of modification to the cross-stem design to pour in. However, what seems to be the actual Cherry MX switch patent (US4467160A) was filed in 1983 and expired all the way back in 2003. So what exactly expired in 2014?

DiabloD3 11mo ago
That line is wild, btw. We've been paying less and actively avoiding lower quality Cherry branded MX compatible switches. There is no reason to ever pay Cherry's pricing when Kalih and Gateron completely control that market now. Also, the patent they're discussing, afaik, isn't MX specific, but more a specific thing in how Cherry's switches work (including the MX). Kalih and Gateron both built their businesses on making patent-avoiding designs that are superior.

Jeff-Collins 11mo ago

[dead]

keithnz 11mo ago

that website is horrible, you can't reject the advertising cookies