4 ms·

I'm guessing: fewer people buying from the power companies/grid => the fixed costs of these companies are pushed onto the poorer customers, who already couldn't

I'm guessing: fewer people buying from the power companies/grid => the fixed costs of these companies are pushed onto the poorer customers, who already couldn't afford much.

gus_massa 11mo ago
Don't they charge a minimum just for keeping the wires connected?
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- bee_rider 11mo ago
  I think most places the service is priced under the assumption that usage is enough to pay for the grid… I’ve only ever rented though. Are connection fees something that homeworkers think about? Possibly we will have to see changes to account for this sort of stuff at a more granular level, as the grid becomes more dynamic. But, that’s a future we should be actively looking to design for, as the energy supply mix is going to change whatever anybody thinks about that. Can’t beat energy falling from the sky, on price…
  - namibj 11mo ago
    In a random German apartment usage tends to be on the order of 30-ish EUR per person, and the connection fee is typically around 10 EUR per month.
    - apelapan 11mo ago
      Is the €30 usage fee going directly to the producer of electricity, or is part of it a variable transmission fee that goes to the network operator? My monthly electricity bill in Sweden, averaged over a year to 1600KWh/month, is approximately €90 production, €50 transmission fee, €25 fixed connection-size fee (25A, 400V), €70 national electricity tax and €50 VAT for a total of €285/month. We'll be moved to yearly-peak-based transmission tariff in 2027 (European law), but for now I don't need to worry about plugging in the car to chargeon cold days or taking shower when someone is cooking.
      - namibj 11mo ago
        Both, currently; notably it's mostly not what goes to your local grid, but rather mostly to the larger scale grid. It's about a 60/40 to 70/30 split between production/"grid-usage-fee" ("Netznutzungsentgelt"). It basically pays off the grid stability provision bids for fast-response power, and the transmission itself. It'd likely be helpful if the peak part could be regulated in a way that's more condusive to match the actual impact you create on transformer sizing, not the worst-case impact you might have. Because there's a difference between a mostly-uncorrelated peak of shower+cooking vs. the car+cold day, because your neighbours don't shower the same time, but the several hours of charging do often overlap and the cold is the same across a neighbourhood that shares a local substation. But yeah, for the most part, transformer size isn't that large of a contributor to overall electricity provision expenses, so I don't expect that to be a significant problem by that 2027 law.
- manmal 11mo ago
  Usually that’s included in per-kWh fee, so indeed usage dependent.
- phkahler 11mo ago
  When they start charging that way, the rich will buy batteries and disconnect from the grid entirely.
  - gus_massa 11mo ago
    It's good until a Wednesday afternoon your home system dies and you have no electricity until Monday. I guess more people would prefer to pay a $10 or $20 monthly fee just in case.
    - chickenbig 11mo ago
      > I guess more people would prefer to pay a $10 or $20 monthly fee just in case. The grid becomes an insurance policy. In that case it is justified to ask for the insured party to pay their share of the system costs; both an energy fee and transmission/distribution/generation capacity fee.
- abdullahkhalids 11mo ago
  I heard that they are trying to restructure the billing in this way for next fiscal year (July 2026- ), but its really difficult to find a non-regressive scheme. Electricity per-unit prices in Pakistan are set by the government, they vary depending on how much you consume [1], and they play a pretty significant role in government popularity. [1] There is a price for the first 50 units you consume, then a higher price for the next 150 units, etc. Similar system to income taxes.
  - namibj 11mo ago
    Grids in Germany if you're not a "typical household/office" with therefore atypical grid usage bill for peak power and energy separately; the billing related peak power is measured by averaging power over 15 minute chunks, and taking the worst one of a year. Alternatively it's also practical for such solar situations to bill for market rate price of the energy in each 15 minute chunk separately; this doesn't correctly attribute transformer and other transmission equipment expenses between solar houses and non-solar houses, but it's still handling the grid tie solar load on the grid's power plants during periods of very little sun.
    - andyferris 11mo ago
      > averaging power over 15 minute chunks, and taking the worst one of a year. What an interesting metric. Wouldn't even a very cheap and small battery (definitely small enough to keep inside an appartment) provide enough smoothing to, like, halve this peak number? You could rig it to not even output energy until you are beyond the current year's peak usage... How much money would you save this way? I just feel this number is so prone to small mistakes (grandma plugs in the wrong things at the wrong times) and hacks (like the above) that the relationship between users' reward/punishment and the grid's health seems wildly disproportionate. > market rate price of the energy in each 15 minute chunk separately I am currently on a plan with 5 minute market rates, can buy and sell in (sell prices can go negative - as can buy, actually), all automated. At least I feel we am working with the grid, not against it, and we make a small net profit (before depreciation).
      - 11mo ago
riku_iki 11mo ago
its easily fixable, utility company can charge fee for fixed cost those who connected to the grid, and if all rich decided to disconnect, then they disconnect neighborhood eliminating fixed cost.
abdullahkhalids 11mo ago
This is correct. But there is a bit more. Almost all power plants in Pakistan are built with state-backed dollar-denominated loans (reason govt incompetence+corruption). This means if grid demand goes down, power plants don't go out of business like they would in a market based system. Instead, they keep collecting dollar-denominated interest paid by the state, even if they produce zero power. The state mitigates this by increasing electricity prices (in rupees). I have forgotten how this helps.
- jstanley 11mo ago
  So the power plants lend dollars to the state so that they can pay to build the power plant? Or else I don't see how the power plants are collecting the interest?
  - abdullahkhalids 11mo ago
    Usually there are three parties in these agreements. 1. State of Pakistan 2. Someone with dollars (the investors) 3. Local businessman who are willing run the power plant. The three parties come to an agreement on what the minimum returns should be on the investment. Say 10% annual. Then the investors give money to the businessman, who then import the power plant equipment and start operating it. The state-run electricity distribution companies buys from the power plant as needed and pays them the unit price set by the State of Pakistan. Part of this is converted into dollars at some pre-agreed rate and transferred to the investors. In all this, if the total returns to the investor are above 10%, then all is good. However, if the grid demand has fallen, and the distribution company didn't buy a lot of units from the power plant, then the State of Pakistan has to step in and give the investors the difference to make up the 10% returns. Yes, it is an insane system.
    - bofadeez 11mo ago
      State capitalism like you described totally undermines the price system by replacing profit-and-loss–guided entrepreneurial calculation with political allocation of resources, thereby rendering economic calculation increasingly impossible and eroding the coordinating function of the market process.

I'm guessing: fewer people buying from the power companies/grid => the fixed costs of these companies are pushed onto the poorer customers, who already couldn't afford much.

gus_massa 11mo ago

Don't they charge a minimum just for keeping the wires connected?

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
bee_rider 11mo ago
I think most places the service is priced under the assumption that usage is enough to pay for the grid… I’ve only ever rented though. Are connection fees something that homeworkers think about? Possibly we will have to see changes to account for this sort of stuff at a more granular level, as the grid becomes more dynamic. But, that’s a future we should be actively looking to design for, as the energy supply mix is going to change whatever anybody thinks about that. Can’t beat energy falling from the sky, on price…
- namibj 11mo ago
  In a random German apartment usage tends to be on the order of 30-ish EUR per person, and the connection fee is typically around 10 EUR per month.
  - apelapan 11mo ago
    Is the €30 usage fee going directly to the producer of electricity, or is part of it a variable transmission fee that goes to the network operator? My monthly electricity bill in Sweden, averaged over a year to 1600KWh/month, is approximately €90 production, €50 transmission fee, €25 fixed connection-size fee (25A, 400V), €70 national electricity tax and €50 VAT for a total of €285/month. We'll be moved to yearly-peak-based transmission tariff in 2027 (European law), but for now I don't need to worry about plugging in the car to chargeon cold days or taking shower when someone is cooking.
    - namibj 11mo ago
      Both, currently; notably it's mostly not what goes to your local grid, but rather mostly to the larger scale grid. It's about a 60/40 to 70/30 split between production/"grid-usage-fee" ("Netznutzungsentgelt"). It basically pays off the grid stability provision bids for fast-response power, and the transmission itself. It'd likely be helpful if the peak part could be regulated in a way that's more condusive to match the actual impact you create on transformer sizing, not the worst-case impact you might have. Because there's a difference between a mostly-uncorrelated peak of shower+cooking vs. the car+cold day, because your neighbours don't shower the same time, but the several hours of charging do often overlap and the cold is the same across a neighbourhood that shares a local substation. But yeah, for the most part, transformer size isn't that large of a contributor to overall electricity provision expenses, so I don't expect that to be a significant problem by that 2027 law.
manmal 11mo ago
Usually that’s included in per-kWh fee, so indeed usage dependent.
phkahler 11mo ago
When they start charging that way, the rich will buy batteries and disconnect from the grid entirely.
- gus_massa 11mo ago
  It's good until a Wednesday afternoon your home system dies and you have no electricity until Monday. I guess more people would prefer to pay a $10 or $20 monthly fee just in case.
  - chickenbig 11mo ago
    > I guess more people would prefer to pay a $10 or $20 monthly fee just in case. The grid becomes an insurance policy. In that case it is justified to ask for the insured party to pay their share of the system costs; both an energy fee and transmission/distribution/generation capacity fee.
abdullahkhalids 11mo ago
I heard that they are trying to restructure the billing in this way for next fiscal year (July 2026- ), but its really difficult to find a non-regressive scheme. Electricity per-unit prices in Pakistan are set by the government, they vary depending on how much you consume [1], and they play a pretty significant role in government popularity. [1] There is a price for the first 50 units you consume, then a higher price for the next 150 units, etc. Similar system to income taxes.
- namibj 11mo ago
  Grids in Germany if you're not a "typical household/office" with therefore atypical grid usage bill for peak power and energy separately; the billing related peak power is measured by averaging power over 15 minute chunks, and taking the worst one of a year. Alternatively it's also practical for such solar situations to bill for market rate price of the energy in each 15 minute chunk separately; this doesn't correctly attribute transformer and other transmission equipment expenses between solar houses and non-solar houses, but it's still handling the grid tie solar load on the grid's power plants during periods of very little sun.
  - andyferris 11mo ago
    > averaging power over 15 minute chunks, and taking the worst one of a year. What an interesting metric. Wouldn't even a very cheap and small battery (definitely small enough to keep inside an appartment) provide enough smoothing to, like, halve this peak number? You could rig it to not even output energy until you are beyond the current year's peak usage... How much money would you save this way? I just feel this number is so prone to small mistakes (grandma plugs in the wrong things at the wrong times) and hacks (like the above) that the relationship between users' reward/punishment and the grid's health seems wildly disproportionate. > market rate price of the energy in each 15 minute chunk separately I am currently on a plan with 5 minute market rates, can buy and sell in (sell prices can go negative - as can buy, actually), all automated. At least I feel we am working with the grid, not against it, and we make a small net profit (before depreciation).
    - 11mo ago

riku_iki 11mo ago

its easily fixable, utility company can charge fee for fixed cost those who connected to the grid, and if all rich decided to disconnect, then they disconnect neighborhood eliminating fixed cost.

abdullahkhalids 11mo ago

This is correct. But there is a bit more. Almost all power plants in Pakistan are built with state-backed dollar-denominated loans (reason govt incompetence+corruption). This means if grid demand goes down, power plants don't go out of business like they would in a market based system. Instead, they keep collecting dollar-denominated interest paid by the state, even if they produce zero power. The state mitigates this by increasing electricity prices (in rupees). I have forgotten how this helps.

jstanley 11mo ago
So the power plants lend dollars to the state so that they can pay to build the power plant? Or else I don't see how the power plants are collecting the interest?
- abdullahkhalids 11mo ago
  Usually there are three parties in these agreements. 1. State of Pakistan 2. Someone with dollars (the investors) 3. Local businessman who are willing run the power plant. The three parties come to an agreement on what the minimum returns should be on the investment. Say 10% annual. Then the investors give money to the businessman, who then import the power plant equipment and start operating it. The state-run electricity distribution companies buys from the power plant as needed and pays them the unit price set by the State of Pakistan. Part of this is converted into dollars at some pre-agreed rate and transferred to the investors. In all this, if the total returns to the investor are above 10%, then all is good. However, if the grid demand has fallen, and the distribution company didn't buy a lot of units from the power plant, then the State of Pakistan has to step in and give the investors the difference to make up the 10% returns. Yes, it is an insane system.
  - bofadeez 11mo ago
    State capitalism like you described totally undermines the price system by replacing profit-and-loss–guided entrepreneurial calculation with political allocation of resources, thereby rendering economic calculation increasingly impossible and eroding the coordinating function of the market process.