5 ms·

While I personally find no objection to these spouses remaining here, I don't see what is really supposed to concern me from a legal perspective. There is no ri

by anon291 11mo ago

While I personally find no objection to these spouses remaining here, I don't see what is really supposed to concern me from a legal perspective. There is no right to residency of migration in general. I do agree we ought to change the law to be make it easier for spouses of citizens, but if you overstay a visa you should expect detention. However from a moral standpoint I find the infant child separation abhorrent and think that we should generally defer to American citizen spouses as a pretty good indicator that we should show some mercy in enforcement. Moreover, the law should be changed that foreign spouses without criminal records and not taking public benefit ought to be allowed to stay and work honestly. Make it easy.

LorenPechtel 11mo ago
Except it's not an overstay--you're automatically in status while there is an application pending.
- filleduchaos 11mo ago
  I've found that it's quite futile to expect American citizens to actually understand how their own visa and immigration laws work. Unfortunately it doesn't stop them from having strong opinions about them.
  - nxobject 11mo ago
    Case in point: public charge and political rhetoric that (at the very least) wildly stretches the truth about immigrants applying for benefits.
  - protocolture 11mo ago
    I remember talking to a britisher about the US border situation on a forum that also included yanks. He had asked for advice, and I relayed a bunch that was evergreen, but was passed around during the first trump admin. The yanks all got confused, like I was making up a problem. And would not stop pretending like there are no border issues even after I presented multiple instances as evidence. Like if you can drive your car to the store and back there must also not be issues at the airport. I feel like US media must isolate people severely. Whereas, countries that do business with the US, are kept keenly aware of the dangers.
    - anon291 11mo ago
      I am intimately familiar with the immigration system as my entire family came to this country by applying for green cards and waiting. Not your average yank lol.
      - protocolture 11mo ago
        Not even just immigration. The US detains people based on the content of their phones. Like beloved childrens authors https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/28/in-that-moment-i-loathed-america-i-loathed-the-entire-country https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/28/in-tha... Or meme havers https://hyperallergic.com/us-agencies-say-they-have-no-records-of-tourist-flagged-for-jd-vance-meme/ https://hyperallergic.com/us-agencies-say-they-have-no-recor... The advice is generally, that if you absolutely have to go to the US, that you start a fresh email account, and take an empty/clean phone signed in with your fresh email account through border security, then load a backup to your phone once through.
  - mcny 11mo ago
    My understanding is that the validity of the visa has nothing to do with whether you are "in status". The visa is for entry and authorized status allows you to stay in the US. You could be authorized to stay in the US and yet have to petition to get a re entry permit should you choose to leave the US temporarily. Now I wrote this and even I am not sure if what I wrote is fully correct. I know it is correct for at least one scenario but I anal and I am sure there are scenarios where what I said is not just false but dangerously bad advice.
  - anon291 11mo ago
    My entire family migrated here. No one broke any of these laws. People went home and we figured it out eventually. Spare me. You probably read about this in a book somewhere. I lived it. Again. I'm sorry for these people. But the law is easy to follow
  - LorenPechtel 11mo ago
    I'm the US citizen married to a foreign spouse. I'm looking at the rules at the time we went through them--the application invalidated her non-immigrant visa, she could not enter but since she was here she was allowed to remain while the application was pending.
nxobject 11mo ago
> if you overstay a visa you should expect detention Again, though, there's a catch-22. Wait times until you're even notified about your interview appointment date are long and unpredictable.
- aikinai 11mo ago
  The article strongly misrepresents this, and they were almost certainly not detained for over-staying, but likely for fraudulent entry. See my other comment.
  - monocasa 11mo ago
    I don't think fraudulent entry makes sense, because that would have to be the case at the time of entry.
    - aikinai 11mo ago
      Read my other comment. It’s fraudulent based on intent, which they don’t know until you apply for change of status.
      - monocasa 11mo ago
        I read your other comment; it just doesn't stand muster. Fraudulent entry can only happen on entry. If they had no intent to be married on entry, then there's no fraud on entry, and therefore it doesn't apply.
        aikinai 11mo ago
        "You let me in at the time, therefore you can never deem the past entry fraudulent" is not how the law works. It was fraudulent at the time of entry, but the government doesn't know that until true intent is revealed when the foreigner applies for a change of status. The timeline is: 1. Foreigner is married to or intends to marry a US citizen and live in the US (they know this; the government doesn't). 2. Foreigner enters the US with the assertion they have no intent to immigrate (they know this is false; US doesn't). 3. Couple applies for change of status to immigrate → This reveals the foreigner's original intent to immigrate even at the time of entry (the US now knows the entry was fraudulent) I'm not defending the law; I believe it's haphazard and inhumane. Why do you get to apply while together inside the US only if you decided to marry and immigrate after entering the US, but if the foreigner is outside the US at the time you make the decision, you're now locked out for years? But that is what it is, and these people are getting burned trying to skirt the law.
jackjeff 11mo ago
I think this was explained before. But basically the processing takes so long (over a year) that you are guaranteed to overstay most visas and leaving the US is considered as abandoning your petition for a green card. So you are in this limbo state where you are given some kind of status while the application is pending and you absolutely can’t leave the country. But that’s not the issue here nor why people are being detained. People came to the US with intend to marry and apply for a green card on non immigrant visa. For instance British citizens on a visa waiver can just show up and get married. That’s legal. But it turns into immigration fraud if you always intended to apply for a green card afterwards. What you are supposed to do is apply for a K1 fiancé visa which takes another year.
- anon291 11mo ago
  Green cards are not rights. If your date is set a year out and you don't have a visa for a year, you got unlucky. This is how migration works.
  - array_key_first 11mo ago
    Yes the point is that sucks. Saying "well that's how it is" is true, but also not useful. It was a choice to design it this way, and a poor choice. We should demand better. Since when have Americans become so spineless?
epistasis 11mo ago
A capricious, arbitrary, hard to satisfy legal system that's filled with catch-22s doesn't concern you? Is it because only immigrants and their families are subjected to an unfair legal system, so it doesn't seem to be your concern? In a democracy, the actions of a government are collective. We all bear responsibility for injustice and a corresponding responsibility to pursue a more just system.
protocolture 11mo ago
>but if you overstay a visa you should expect detention. I really dont get this view. Like you could substitute detention with a 1 dollar a day fine, or community service. Why does the punishment for this particular crime, have to be detention. Why is it worse than making your local council mad for not taking out the bins. The severity of the punishment is just ludicrous compared to the crime of participating in a community, and the US isnt the only place with this brainrot. The community isn't harmed by an overstay as it is with say, shooting people or stabbing people. In fact it seems widely recognised that these people contribute in the net positive. It also seems like there's an overwhelming consensus that its easier to sort out immigration issues from inside the target country, outside of detention with access to legal representation.
- anon291 11mo ago
  Because this is immigration and there is no right to be in another country. I've been detained for irregularities in other countries while just doing tourism. This is a normal and expected part of travelling to foreign countries.
  - mktk1001 11mo ago
    Detaining people based on their skin color is not normal anywhere except US
    - anon291 11mo ago
      As an actual brown person, I was concerned about these laws being used to target people by skin color. However if you read the article, it's all about white European migrants being detained, so I think it's pretty clear that the law is not about brown people bad. Nice try though
  - closeparen 11mo ago
    Americans have the right to marry and thereby grant status to foreigners.
  - protocolture 11mo ago

by anon291 11mo ago

LorenPechtel 11mo ago

Except it's not an overstay--you're automatically in status while there is an application pending.

filleduchaos 11mo ago
I've found that it's quite futile to expect American citizens to actually understand how their own visa and immigration laws work. Unfortunately it doesn't stop them from having strong opinions about them.
- nxobject 11mo ago
  Case in point: public charge and political rhetoric that (at the very least) wildly stretches the truth about immigrants applying for benefits.
- protocolture 11mo ago
  I remember talking to a britisher about the US border situation on a forum that also included yanks. He had asked for advice, and I relayed a bunch that was evergreen, but was passed around during the first trump admin. The yanks all got confused, like I was making up a problem. And would not stop pretending like there are no border issues even after I presented multiple instances as evidence. Like if you can drive your car to the store and back there must also not be issues at the airport. I feel like US media must isolate people severely. Whereas, countries that do business with the US, are kept keenly aware of the dangers.
  - anon291 11mo ago
    I am intimately familiar with the immigration system as my entire family came to this country by applying for green cards and waiting. Not your average yank lol.
    - protocolture 11mo ago
      Not even just immigration. The US detains people based on the content of their phones. Like beloved childrens authors https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/28/in-that-moment-i-loathed-america-i-loathed-the-entire-country https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/28/in-tha... Or meme havers https://hyperallergic.com/us-agencies-say-they-have-no-records-of-tourist-flagged-for-jd-vance-meme/ https://hyperallergic.com/us-agencies-say-they-have-no-recor... The advice is generally, that if you absolutely have to go to the US, that you start a fresh email account, and take an empty/clean phone signed in with your fresh email account through border security, then load a backup to your phone once through.
- mcny 11mo ago
  My understanding is that the validity of the visa has nothing to do with whether you are "in status". The visa is for entry and authorized status allows you to stay in the US. You could be authorized to stay in the US and yet have to petition to get a re entry permit should you choose to leave the US temporarily. Now I wrote this and even I am not sure if what I wrote is fully correct. I know it is correct for at least one scenario but I anal and I am sure there are scenarios where what I said is not just false but dangerously bad advice.
- anon291 11mo ago
  My entire family migrated here. No one broke any of these laws. People went home and we figured it out eventually. Spare me. You probably read about this in a book somewhere. I lived it. Again. I'm sorry for these people. But the law is easy to follow
- LorenPechtel 11mo ago
  I'm the US citizen married to a foreign spouse. I'm looking at the rules at the time we went through them--the application invalidated her non-immigrant visa, she could not enter but since she was here she was allowed to remain while the application was pending.

nxobject 11mo ago

> if you overstay a visa you should expect detention Again, though, there's a catch-22. Wait times until you're even notified about your interview appointment date are long and unpredictable.

aikinai 11mo ago
The article strongly misrepresents this, and they were almost certainly not detained for over-staying, but likely for fraudulent entry. See my other comment.
- monocasa 11mo ago
  I don't think fraudulent entry makes sense, because that would have to be the case at the time of entry.
  - aikinai 11mo ago
    Read my other comment. It’s fraudulent based on intent, which they don’t know until you apply for change of status.
    - monocasa 11mo ago
      I read your other comment; it just doesn't stand muster. Fraudulent entry can only happen on entry. If they had no intent to be married on entry, then there's no fraud on entry, and therefore it doesn't apply.
      - aikinai 11mo ago
        "You let me in at the time, therefore you can never deem the past entry fraudulent" is not how the law works. It was fraudulent at the time of entry, but the government doesn't know that until true intent is revealed when the foreigner applies for a change of status. The timeline is: 1. Foreigner is married to or intends to marry a US citizen and live in the US (they know this; the government doesn't). 2. Foreigner enters the US with the assertion they have no intent to immigrate (they know this is false; US doesn't). 3. Couple applies for change of status to immigrate → This reveals the foreigner's original intent to immigrate even at the time of entry (the US now knows the entry was fraudulent) I'm not defending the law; I believe it's haphazard and inhumane. Why do you get to apply while together inside the US only if you decided to marry and immigrate after entering the US, but if the foreigner is outside the US at the time you make the decision, you're now locked out for years? But that is what it is, and these people are getting burned trying to skirt the law.

jackjeff 11mo ago

I think this was explained before. But basically the processing takes so long (over a year) that you are guaranteed to overstay most visas and leaving the US is considered as abandoning your petition for a green card. So you are in this limbo state where you are given some kind of status while the application is pending and you absolutely can’t leave the country. But that’s not the issue here nor why people are being detained. People came to the US with intend to marry and apply for a green card on non immigrant visa. For instance British citizens on a visa waiver can just show up and get married. That’s legal. But it turns into immigration fraud if you always intended to apply for a green card afterwards. What you are supposed to do is apply for a K1 fiancé visa which takes another year.

anon291 11mo ago
Green cards are not rights. If your date is set a year out and you don't have a visa for a year, you got unlucky. This is how migration works.
- array_key_first 11mo ago
  Yes the point is that sucks. Saying "well that's how it is" is true, but also not useful. It was a choice to design it this way, and a poor choice. We should demand better. Since when have Americans become so spineless?

epistasis 11mo ago

A capricious, arbitrary, hard to satisfy legal system that's filled with catch-22s doesn't concern you? Is it because only immigrants and their families are subjected to an unfair legal system, so it doesn't seem to be your concern? In a democracy, the actions of a government are collective. We all bear responsibility for injustice and a corresponding responsibility to pursue a more just system.

protocolture 11mo ago

>but if you overstay a visa you should expect detention. I really dont get this view. Like you could substitute detention with a 1 dollar a day fine, or community service. Why does the punishment for this particular crime, have to be detention. Why is it worse than making your local council mad for not taking out the bins. The severity of the punishment is just ludicrous compared to the crime of participating in a community, and the US isnt the only place with this brainrot. The community isn't harmed by an overstay as it is with say, shooting people or stabbing people. In fact it seems widely recognised that these people contribute in the net positive. It also seems like there's an overwhelming consensus that its easier to sort out immigration issues from inside the target country, outside of detention with access to legal representation.

anon291 11mo ago
Because this is immigration and there is no right to be in another country. I've been detained for irregularities in other countries while just doing tourism. This is a normal and expected part of travelling to foreign countries.
- mktk1001 11mo ago
  Detaining people based on their skin color is not normal anywhere except US
  - anon291 11mo ago
    As an actual brown person, I was concerned about these laws being used to target people by skin color. However if you read the article, it's all about white European migrants being detained, so I think it's pretty clear that the law is not about brown people bad. Nice try though
- closeparen 11mo ago
  Americans have the right to marry and thereby grant status to foreigners.
- protocolture 11mo ago