6 ms·

It's fair to worry about the geopolitics of borders and minority groups, but this does not have much to do with a company placing its headquarters in a middle c

by TomasBM 11mo ago

It's fair to worry about the geopolitics of borders and minority groups, but this does not have much to do with a company placing its headquarters in a middle country where maybe (former) members of a controversial state could also work. People believe all kinds of weird things, and that includes Russians. In secular countries, you're free to believe in what you want, but that doesn't mean you will or should be taken seriously. What a random Russian person believes doesn't matter, unless they have power and it has an effect on others. Switch Russian with any other ethnicity or nation in the world, and you will perhaps see why the rhetoric of mixing geopolitics and ethnic politics with company policy (or even your own relationships) is not the best.

Tadpole9181 11mo ago
Kagi also kept using Yandex - a Russian search engine - despite many people explicitly requesting they not provide funding to imperialist invaders (aside the obvious question of censorship skewing result quality). When they said no, and explained Yandex only gets paid when needed for a search anyway, people asked for a toggle to disable Yandex for their searches. That way at least they aren't funding it. Rejected that too. Not going to lie, it is kinda weird how this is happening again.
- TomasBM 11mo ago
  I haven't followed the particular situation, but if it's as you say it, I agree that's bad company policy not to allow opting-out. It's still a leap to conclude that "HQ in a neutral country" equates to or results in "Russian influence". The obvious stepping stones between the announcement and the conclusion of the parent comment would need to be that: A) Kagi (intends to) hires many employees of Russian origin, who B) live in Belgrade and C) also evidently and publicly hold imperialist views, which D) have an effect on the company and its product.
  - jimbohn 11mo ago
    Note that this isn't "neutral" as in "I like chocolate" vs "You don't like chocolate". Sometimes being "neutral" is pretty damning, more so if you are providing a "neutral" ground for sanctioned individuals or people waiting the $CURRENT_GENOCIDAL_WAR out. I agree with you about not likely being there an A->B->C->D conclusion, but it's a signal about the preferences or lack thereof of the ownership of the company. But really, they can do whatever they prefer.
jimbohn 11mo ago
The "maybe (former) members of a controversial state could also work" carries A LOT of weight here. Given the connection with Yandex, I assume the company itself is A-okay with what russia is doing, since the company is working with what is basically going to be russia's wechat. I disagree that what a random russian believes doesn't matter. And I disagree about the ethnicity argument. Russian is not "just another ethnicity". Countries bordering russia are now (again) under threat (or war) using "muh russian minorities" as a casus belli. Enough of them in a city/province/country, and institutions will start getting conditioned, from within and from without. I am a liberal, but there is being a liberal, and there is self-sabotage. Deciding to look the other way, as a company, is just another signal about the owner of that company.
- TomasBM 11mo ago
  If you genuinely hold those views, and aren't just trolling, then I certainly hope you're not responsible for any hiring or people management decisions. If you do interact with people, I'd suggest talking to those you consider adversarial by default, in person. Things seem much more adversarial online. "Enough of them" really applies to any minority, so if you think Russians are a problem-ethnicity today, there will be plenty more to choose from tomorrow. If you find it difficult to distinguish between manipulation of ethnic conflict, propaganda, and the role of an individual in a society, there's plenty of literature online. It's not blind tolerance or "self-sabotaging liberalism" to maintain a secular state and non-discriminatory employment policies, and to require your employees to leave politics outside the business. Regarding your interpretation of the parent comment: 1. HQ in Serbia =/= HQ in Russia 2. Controversial use of Yandex =/= Russian influence or support of imperialist policies 3. Hiring of Russian devs =/= Hiring of devs exercising adversarial or imperialist views And again, I still suggest you do the exercise: find another ethnicity others find controversial and adversarial (but you don't), and switch the terms in your comments. If that fails, at least be open about your views in public, so others can avoid you and your company. I don't like nor support what the Russian government does, but I don't conflate those actions with those of Russian individuals or the people.
  - jimbohn 11mo ago

by TomasBM 11mo ago

Tadpole9181 11mo ago

Kagi also kept using Yandex - a Russian search engine - despite many people explicitly requesting they not provide funding to imperialist invaders (aside the obvious question of censorship skewing result quality). When they said no, and explained Yandex only gets paid when needed for a search anyway, people asked for a toggle to disable Yandex for their searches. That way at least they aren't funding it. Rejected that too. Not going to lie, it is kinda weird how this is happening again.

TomasBM 11mo ago
I haven't followed the particular situation, but if it's as you say it, I agree that's bad company policy not to allow opting-out. It's still a leap to conclude that "HQ in a neutral country" equates to or results in "Russian influence". The obvious stepping stones between the announcement and the conclusion of the parent comment would need to be that: A) Kagi (intends to) hires many employees of Russian origin, who B) live in Belgrade and C) also evidently and publicly hold imperialist views, which D) have an effect on the company and its product.
- jimbohn 11mo ago
  Note that this isn't "neutral" as in "I like chocolate" vs "You don't like chocolate". Sometimes being "neutral" is pretty damning, more so if you are providing a "neutral" ground for sanctioned individuals or people waiting the $CURRENT_GENOCIDAL_WAR out. I agree with you about not likely being there an A->B->C->D conclusion, but it's a signal about the preferences or lack thereof of the ownership of the company. But really, they can do whatever they prefer.

jimbohn 11mo ago

The "maybe (former) members of a controversial state could also work" carries A LOT of weight here. Given the connection with Yandex, I assume the company itself is A-okay with what russia is doing, since the company is working with what is basically going to be russia's wechat. I disagree that what a random russian believes doesn't matter. And I disagree about the ethnicity argument. Russian is not "just another ethnicity". Countries bordering russia are now (again) under threat (or war) using "muh russian minorities" as a casus belli. Enough of them in a city/province/country, and institutions will start getting conditioned, from within and from without. I am a liberal, but there is being a liberal, and there is self-sabotage. Deciding to look the other way, as a company, is just another signal about the owner of that company.

TomasBM 11mo ago
If you genuinely hold those views, and aren't just trolling, then I certainly hope you're not responsible for any hiring or people management decisions. If you do interact with people, I'd suggest talking to those you consider adversarial by default, in person. Things seem much more adversarial online. "Enough of them" really applies to any minority, so if you think Russians are a problem-ethnicity today, there will be plenty more to choose from tomorrow. If you find it difficult to distinguish between manipulation of ethnic conflict, propaganda, and the role of an individual in a society, there's plenty of literature online. It's not blind tolerance or "self-sabotaging liberalism" to maintain a secular state and non-discriminatory employment policies, and to require your employees to leave politics outside the business. Regarding your interpretation of the parent comment: 1. HQ in Serbia =/= HQ in Russia 2. Controversial use of Yandex =/= Russian influence or support of imperialist policies 3. Hiring of Russian devs =/= Hiring of devs exercising adversarial or imperialist views And again, I still suggest you do the exercise: find another ethnicity others find controversial and adversarial (but you don't), and switch the terms in your comments. If that fails, at least be open about your views in public, so others can avoid you and your company. I don't like nor support what the Russian government does, but I don't conflate those actions with those of Russian individuals or the people.
- jimbohn 11mo ago