3 ms·

Many years ago I was watching a video of some sculpture being done. I was quite unimpressed with the art itself. Then the video zoomed out, and I saw that the

by andai 1y ago

Many years ago I was watching a video of some sculpture being done. I was quite unimpressed with the art itself. Then the video zoomed out, and I saw that the guy had spent like 2 years making it out of individual toothpicks. Suddenly I was amazed, right? With AI it's kinda the opposite process, right? You see something, it's impressive, maybe you even like it personally, and then you realize orders of magnitude less effort went into it than it looks like "should" have, based on the result. So we seem to have here the "direct experience" of the art itself, and then a "narrative layer" which obscures that. And we seem to value the latter more highly. A related example is those pages selling "handcrafted" leather bags and they have an life story about Grandma Williams and suddenly the bag is worth a billion times more to the buyer.

thisisit 1y ago
This is the sad reality. Because things can go the other way as well. Something can be amazing but beaten down because - AI. Here's a video which was discussed by VFX artists at Corridor Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43h61QAXjpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43h61QAXjpY This is so much creative work. But once people know that genAI and ComfyUI might be involved they might beat it down.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  To me, that is kind of the essence of contemporary AI. It's showy but lacks any point or spirit whatsoever. For instance, imagine the morphing was on beat with the music - suddenly it's actually quite neat. As is, it just looks like some fairly low effort prompts. Even the dancing seems relatively low effort and makes minimal effort to play to the scene or music in any way outside of a vague sort of liquidy theme. It just feels very disconnected. Take, for contrast, the original Matrix. The reason the effects in that movie were revolutionary is not because of them just looking neat, but because they fit extremely well into the movie, and were supplemented by other effects that bumped them up to the next level. CG tends to age horrrrrribly (for anybody over 40, watch the original Jurassic Park again...) but the original Matrix lobby scene [1] still actually looks pretty decent, and I think that's because it had spirit. Note how so much love is put into the choreography, even small things like the footsteps being on beat with the background audio at the start of the scene, the military style marching drums when the paramilitary forces enter the scene, and more. It's just great. There's no reason AI can't play a major role in these artistic pipelines, but that's the thing - there's a huge difference between making something showy, and making something that feels like it has spirit, like something that is art. And it's for this reason that I don't think artists are going anywhere. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2eCmhBgsyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2eCmhBgsyI
- freehorse 1y ago
  I don't know about the specific piece, but my essential problem with AI art is that it lacks intentionality. I am not sure how use of AI tools in a creative manner can be reconciled with this fact, also because I do not really use the actual professional AI tools. Maybe it is analogous to using LLMs for tab-completion vs prompting and letting them roam and write the code as agents. I would rather "AI" as tightly integrated into a process and being an actual tool without disrupting it, than something that essentially turns us all into some kind of managers.
  - thisisit 1y ago
    This was created with intentionality. I forgot to link to Corridor's analysis video: https://youtu.be/ct_7FU-DmfY?t=1413 https://youtu.be/ct_7FU-DmfY?t=1413 As they explain this required tons of work to tell the AI what to do. It's sad that in the sibling comment this is marked as lazy.
- account42 1y ago
  What do you mean "once people know" - that video just looks like AI slop from the get go.
mvdtnz 1y ago
Absolutely. It's the same reason I won't watch woodworking videos that incorporate CNC. I am here for the craftsmanship, not just the end result.
- nicbou 1y ago
  You would love Pask Makes.
oreally 1y ago
This is called marketing and pushing a brand. It's nothing new. It could even be faked. There was a clothing brand who said their stuff was all hand made, artisanal, only to be found out they sent their stuff to China to make. Now the Chinese workers are ranting about getting credit for their quality work. It's why I think it's a sign of maturity to be able to get past all the narratives and spin to a product, all the while living less materialistically.
- andai 1y ago
  I was in Uzbekistan one time. A granny sold a scarf to my mum. "My daughter made this. Hand made." A week later in Turkey, we found the same scarf on the street. "Made in China!" the shopkeeper said.
  - immibis 1y ago
    In Germany things are frequently labelled "Hausgemacht" or "housemade" which is designed to make you think "homemade", but actually, any kind of building is a "Haus".
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      In German 'Haus' means both small building and home. Think 'Zuhause'.
- freehorse 1y ago
  As humans, we appreciate also the process in making things, not just the end result. For art this is especially more important than for everyday, for practical use products. The more one knows about a specific kind of art and can relate to the experience of making such art, the more they are usually interested in parts of the process because the more information they can extract about the piece of art. That also often gives new perspectives in the art piece itself. Art (and many other things) is much about contextualizing. Contextualizing an art piece to a specific process of making it or a specific era that was made may help notice details that would otherwise go unnoticed. Perception is not neutral and cannot be, and art appreciation even less. Yes it is true that some may try to trick people with fake information about the process of producing something, but that does not mean that the reason people may be interested in the process itself is marketing. It is part of the human condition and experience imo that some may try to take advantage of, but is important otherwise.
pjc50 1y ago
It's all second and third order effects. You'd then be less impressed if you found the zoom out toothpick video was itself just made with AI. And even less impressed if you zoom out further, and discover your entire feed is just different AI toothpick sculpture videos, because that's what went viral yesterday so now everybody has prompted one overnight. There are about 250k games on Steam and over 125M users. What happens when full sloppification means there's 250M games on Steam? You scroll forever without reaching a game that more than a few other humans have played. But you can't distinguish it from the thousands of other similar games. Choice is a fatigue all of its own.
- immibis 1y ago
  Steam used to be tightly controlled but they loosened it over time - originally only Valve games, then Valve partners, then you had to pay a lot of money, then only a little money. Maybe now they'll tighten it again.
- andai 1y ago
  One game per player eh? At that point we won't need Steam, you'll just put on your thinking hat and the computer will synthesize exactly what you're in the mood for. (Well, maybe Steam itself will do that — VALVE's been researching brain computer interface entertainment for years :)
QuadmasterXLII 1y ago
Much if the value of art is that it links you to everyone else who views it, which is fundamentally diluted by any process that makes art faster than it can be observed. This stays true no matter how high the quality of the fast art making process climbs. Making a sculpture out of toothpicks on the other hand preserves this value by synthesizing the needed scarcity via proof of work, and would do so even if it added nothing aesthetically.
Clamchop 1y ago
I've noticed this, too, and have likened it to haircuts: If you gave yourself a haircut, you don't say so, because it inevitably opens the door to a level of scrutiny and criticism that it wouldn't otherwise. People are just going to lie about using AI and honestly that's fine. An even older idiom is that you don't want to see how the sausage gets made. Not if you enjoy sausage.
- WhyOhWhyQ 1y ago
  I don't think it's fine. Don't lie about your work.
  - Clamchop 1y ago
    Lie was probably the wrong word. Secrecy about how work is done is and has always been normal. Not saying anything at all if you're not obligated to is totally fair and, yes, fine. AI doesn't change that.
    - bluefirebrand 1y ago
      > Not saying anything at all if you're not obligated to is totally fair and, yes, fine Which is why we need regulations that create obligations to disclose AI usage
    - andsoitis 1y ago
      We frown on people who pass off something they didn’t do or make as the fruit of their labor. AI isn’t good enough yet to make things autonomously, so someone who harnesses AI to make something can, at least in my eyes, claim they made it (AI isn’t just a tool). If and when AI becomes autonomous, the human ceases to be the creator in my view since they are no longer in the creation loop. Then you cannot pretend you made the thing.

by andai 1y ago

thisisit 1y ago

This is the sad reality. Because things can go the other way as well. Something can be amazing but beaten down because - AI. Here's a video which was discussed by VFX artists at Corridor Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43h61QAXjpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43h61QAXjpY This is so much creative work. But once people know that genAI and ComfyUI might be involved they might beat it down.

somenameforme 1y ago
To me, that is kind of the essence of contemporary AI. It's showy but lacks any point or spirit whatsoever. For instance, imagine the morphing was on beat with the music - suddenly it's actually quite neat. As is, it just looks like some fairly low effort prompts. Even the dancing seems relatively low effort and makes minimal effort to play to the scene or music in any way outside of a vague sort of liquidy theme. It just feels very disconnected. Take, for contrast, the original Matrix. The reason the effects in that movie were revolutionary is not because of them just looking neat, but because they fit extremely well into the movie, and were supplemented by other effects that bumped them up to the next level. CG tends to age horrrrrribly (for anybody over 40, watch the original Jurassic Park again...) but the original Matrix lobby scene [1] still actually looks pretty decent, and I think that's because it had spirit. Note how so much love is put into the choreography, even small things like the footsteps being on beat with the background audio at the start of the scene, the military style marching drums when the paramilitary forces enter the scene, and more. It's just great. There's no reason AI can't play a major role in these artistic pipelines, but that's the thing - there's a huge difference between making something showy, and making something that feels like it has spirit, like something that is art. And it's for this reason that I don't think artists are going anywhere. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2eCmhBgsyI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2eCmhBgsyI
freehorse 1y ago
I don't know about the specific piece, but my essential problem with AI art is that it lacks intentionality. I am not sure how use of AI tools in a creative manner can be reconciled with this fact, also because I do not really use the actual professional AI tools. Maybe it is analogous to using LLMs for tab-completion vs prompting and letting them roam and write the code as agents. I would rather "AI" as tightly integrated into a process and being an actual tool without disrupting it, than something that essentially turns us all into some kind of managers.
- thisisit 1y ago
  This was created with intentionality. I forgot to link to Corridor's analysis video: https://youtu.be/ct_7FU-DmfY?t=1413 https://youtu.be/ct_7FU-DmfY?t=1413 As they explain this required tons of work to tell the AI what to do. It's sad that in the sibling comment this is marked as lazy.
account42 1y ago
What do you mean "once people know" - that video just looks like AI slop from the get go.

mvdtnz 1y ago

Absolutely. It's the same reason I won't watch woodworking videos that incorporate CNC. I am here for the craftsmanship, not just the end result.

nicbou 1y ago
You would love Pask Makes.

oreally 1y ago

This is called marketing and pushing a brand. It's nothing new. It could even be faked. There was a clothing brand who said their stuff was all hand made, artisanal, only to be found out they sent their stuff to China to make. Now the Chinese workers are ranting about getting credit for their quality work. It's why I think it's a sign of maturity to be able to get past all the narratives and spin to a product, all the while living less materialistically.

andai 1y ago
I was in Uzbekistan one time. A granny sold a scarf to my mum. "My daughter made this. Hand made." A week later in Turkey, we found the same scarf on the street. "Made in China!" the shopkeeper said.
- immibis 1y ago
  In Germany things are frequently labelled "Hausgemacht" or "housemade" which is designed to make you think "homemade", but actually, any kind of building is a "Haus".
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    In German 'Haus' means both small building and home. Think 'Zuhause'.
freehorse 1y ago
As humans, we appreciate also the process in making things, not just the end result. For art this is especially more important than for everyday, for practical use products. The more one knows about a specific kind of art and can relate to the experience of making such art, the more they are usually interested in parts of the process because the more information they can extract about the piece of art. That also often gives new perspectives in the art piece itself. Art (and many other things) is much about contextualizing. Contextualizing an art piece to a specific process of making it or a specific era that was made may help notice details that would otherwise go unnoticed. Perception is not neutral and cannot be, and art appreciation even less. Yes it is true that some may try to trick people with fake information about the process of producing something, but that does not mean that the reason people may be interested in the process itself is marketing. It is part of the human condition and experience imo that some may try to take advantage of, but is important otherwise.

pjc50 1y ago

It's all second and third order effects. You'd then be less impressed if you found the zoom out toothpick video was itself just made with AI. And even less impressed if you zoom out further, and discover your entire feed is just different AI toothpick sculpture videos, because that's what went viral yesterday so now everybody has prompted one overnight. There are about 250k games on Steam and over 125M users. What happens when full sloppification means there's 250M games on Steam? You scroll forever without reaching a game that more than a few other humans have played. But you can't distinguish it from the thousands of other similar games. Choice is a fatigue all of its own.

immibis 1y ago
Steam used to be tightly controlled but they loosened it over time - originally only Valve games, then Valve partners, then you had to pay a lot of money, then only a little money. Maybe now they'll tighten it again.
andai 1y ago
One game per player eh? At that point we won't need Steam, you'll just put on your thinking hat and the computer will synthesize exactly what you're in the mood for. (Well, maybe Steam itself will do that — VALVE's been researching brain computer interface entertainment for years :)

QuadmasterXLII 1y ago

Much if the value of art is that it links you to everyone else who views it, which is fundamentally diluted by any process that makes art faster than it can be observed. This stays true no matter how high the quality of the fast art making process climbs. Making a sculpture out of toothpicks on the other hand preserves this value by synthesizing the needed scarcity via proof of work, and would do so even if it added nothing aesthetically.

Clamchop 1y ago

I've noticed this, too, and have likened it to haircuts: If you gave yourself a haircut, you don't say so, because it inevitably opens the door to a level of scrutiny and criticism that it wouldn't otherwise. People are just going to lie about using AI and honestly that's fine. An even older idiom is that you don't want to see how the sausage gets made. Not if you enjoy sausage.

WhyOhWhyQ 1y ago
I don't think it's fine. Don't lie about your work.
- Clamchop 1y ago
  Lie was probably the wrong word. Secrecy about how work is done is and has always been normal. Not saying anything at all if you're not obligated to is totally fair and, yes, fine. AI doesn't change that.
  - bluefirebrand 1y ago
    > Not saying anything at all if you're not obligated to is totally fair and, yes, fine Which is why we need regulations that create obligations to disclose AI usage
  - andsoitis 1y ago
    We frown on people who pass off something they didn’t do or make as the fruit of their labor. AI isn’t good enough yet to make things autonomously, so someone who harnesses AI to make something can, at least in my eyes, claim they made it (AI isn’t just a tool). If and when AI becomes autonomous, the human ceases to be the creator in my view since they are no longer in the creation loop. Then you cannot pretend you made the thing.