4 ms·

Given the number of russians that approve of the regime and the war (including those living in the west!), the ongoing hybrid warfare, the ongoing war in Ukrain

by jimbohn 11mo ago

Given the number of russians that approve of the regime and the war (including those living in the west!), the ongoing hybrid warfare, the ongoing war in Ukraine, AND past history; is it really so difficult to understand why people wouldn't see this as a positive? Or why people don't want to have a russian minority in their own country, perhaps one bordering with russia? What do you think about Ukraine? Should it be a free country? What about its territorial integrity, to whom does Crimea belong? What does "everyone you know" think about it?

floppyd 11mo ago
> What do you think about Ukraine? Should it be a free country? What about its territorial integrity, to whom does Crimea belong? Just wanted to let you know that asking those questions as if there can be any variation in my answers really shows you are judging russians from the outside. The Crimea question has been akin to a meme for a decade at this point. I'm obviously not saying "everyone" is thinking one way or another, because there's no "everyone", and there's also no "almost everyone". There are huge chunks of the population that are very much on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and judging one chunk by opinions and action of another one is highly disingenuous, imo.
- jimbohn 11mo ago
  Couldn't you just answer those simple questions? Why is that question a meme? I've yet to find a russian that "just didn't want to get involved" able to provide me straight, simple answers to those questions. I wish other Westerners would wake up to this behaviour, because even navalny was just another russian imperialist (see his past comments about Georgians, for example). About the "everyone", you mentioned that "I, and everyone I know of, left russia not because [...]", so I assumed you must know at least a bunch of like-minded people that share your opinion on the aforementioned facts (not that we know your opinion yet). About the "huge chunks" on a certain spectrum, I am not sure that chunk is huge at all. It's likely a tiny minority that would very much put an asterisk next to their answers to those questions. That minority has been quite silent, regardless of their geographical location and relative safeness.
  - veeti 11mo ago
    Did you consider the possibility that not all people in the world enjoy such a huge degree of freedom of speech? If I had family in Russia and I didn't want them to fall out a window I would also "avoid getting involved". For the same reason I also recommend you don't try using Tiananmen 1989 as a conversation starter when talking to Chinese people.
    - jimbohn 11mo ago
      I did. He has a 6-month-old account with apparently no personal information attached. And, if there is personal identifying info in some comment, it will conveniently allow him to "not get involved" for his own security. But he felt the need to tell us how we should be welcoming of russians. Worked well in the past centuries; I am sure it will work well in the future.
    - Tadpole9181 11mo ago
      Then why does Kagi use a search engine (Yandex) from such a repressive nation with such powerful censorship that someone in Siberia needs to watch their back simply supporting Ukrainian sovereignty? Insofar as pushing back against their customers asking them to stop funding them, or at least providing opt-out.
- Tadpole9181 11mo ago
  So that answers their questions, then.
TomasBM 11mo ago
It's fair to worry about the geopolitics of borders and minority groups, but this does not have much to do with a company placing its headquarters in a middle country where maybe (former) members of a controversial state could also work. People believe all kinds of weird things, and that includes Russians. In secular countries, you're free to believe in what you want, but that doesn't mean you will or should be taken seriously. What a random Russian person believes doesn't matter, unless they have power and it has an effect on others. Switch Russian with any other ethnicity or nation in the world, and you will perhaps see why the rhetoric of mixing geopolitics and ethnic politics with company policy (or even your own relationships) is not the best.
- Tadpole9181 11mo ago
  Kagi also kept using Yandex - a Russian search engine - despite many people explicitly requesting they not provide funding to imperialist invaders (aside the obvious question of censorship skewing result quality). When they said no, and explained Yandex only gets paid when needed for a search anyway, people asked for a toggle to disable Yandex for their searches. That way at least they aren't funding it. Rejected that too. Not going to lie, it is kinda weird how this is happening again.
  - TomasBM 11mo ago
    I haven't followed the particular situation, but if it's as you say it, I agree that's bad company policy not to allow opting-out. It's still a leap to conclude that "HQ in a neutral country" equates to or results in "Russian influence". The obvious stepping stones between the announcement and the conclusion of the parent comment would need to be that: A) Kagi (intends to) hires many employees of Russian origin, who B) live in Belgrade and C) also evidently and publicly hold imperialist views, which D) have an effect on the company and its product.
    - jimbohn 11mo ago
      Note that this isn't "neutral" as in "I like chocolate" vs "You don't like chocolate". Sometimes being "neutral" is pretty damning, more so if you are providing a "neutral" ground for sanctioned individuals or people waiting the $CURRENT_GENOCIDAL_WAR out. I agree with you about not likely being there an A->B->C->D conclusion, but it's a signal about the preferences or lack thereof of the ownership of the company. But really, they can do whatever they prefer.

by jimbohn 11mo ago

floppyd 11mo ago

> What do you think about Ukraine? Should it be a free country? What about its territorial integrity, to whom does Crimea belong? Just wanted to let you know that asking those questions as if there can be any variation in my answers really shows you are judging russians from the outside. The Crimea question has been akin to a meme for a decade at this point. I'm obviously not saying "everyone" is thinking one way or another, because there's no "everyone", and there's also no "almost everyone". There are huge chunks of the population that are very much on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and judging one chunk by opinions and action of another one is highly disingenuous, imo.

jimbohn 11mo ago
Couldn't you just answer those simple questions? Why is that question a meme? I've yet to find a russian that "just didn't want to get involved" able to provide me straight, simple answers to those questions. I wish other Westerners would wake up to this behaviour, because even navalny was just another russian imperialist (see his past comments about Georgians, for example). About the "everyone", you mentioned that "I, and everyone I know of, left russia not because [...]", so I assumed you must know at least a bunch of like-minded people that share your opinion on the aforementioned facts (not that we know your opinion yet). About the "huge chunks" on a certain spectrum, I am not sure that chunk is huge at all. It's likely a tiny minority that would very much put an asterisk next to their answers to those questions. That minority has been quite silent, regardless of their geographical location and relative safeness.
- veeti 11mo ago
  Did you consider the possibility that not all people in the world enjoy such a huge degree of freedom of speech? If I had family in Russia and I didn't want them to fall out a window I would also "avoid getting involved". For the same reason I also recommend you don't try using Tiananmen 1989 as a conversation starter when talking to Chinese people.
  - jimbohn 11mo ago
    I did. He has a 6-month-old account with apparently no personal information attached. And, if there is personal identifying info in some comment, it will conveniently allow him to "not get involved" for his own security. But he felt the need to tell us how we should be welcoming of russians. Worked well in the past centuries; I am sure it will work well in the future.
  - Tadpole9181 11mo ago
    Then why does Kagi use a search engine (Yandex) from such a repressive nation with such powerful censorship that someone in Siberia needs to watch their back simply supporting Ukrainian sovereignty? Insofar as pushing back against their customers asking them to stop funding them, or at least providing opt-out.
Tadpole9181 11mo ago
So that answers their questions, then.

TomasBM 11mo ago

It's fair to worry about the geopolitics of borders and minority groups, but this does not have much to do with a company placing its headquarters in a middle country where maybe (former) members of a controversial state could also work. People believe all kinds of weird things, and that includes Russians. In secular countries, you're free to believe in what you want, but that doesn't mean you will or should be taken seriously. What a random Russian person believes doesn't matter, unless they have power and it has an effect on others. Switch Russian with any other ethnicity or nation in the world, and you will perhaps see why the rhetoric of mixing geopolitics and ethnic politics with company policy (or even your own relationships) is not the best.

Tadpole9181 11mo ago
Kagi also kept using Yandex - a Russian search engine - despite many people explicitly requesting they not provide funding to imperialist invaders (aside the obvious question of censorship skewing result quality). When they said no, and explained Yandex only gets paid when needed for a search anyway, people asked for a toggle to disable Yandex for their searches. That way at least they aren't funding it. Rejected that too. Not going to lie, it is kinda weird how this is happening again.
- TomasBM 11mo ago
  I haven't followed the particular situation, but if it's as you say it, I agree that's bad company policy not to allow opting-out. It's still a leap to conclude that "HQ in a neutral country" equates to or results in "Russian influence". The obvious stepping stones between the announcement and the conclusion of the parent comment would need to be that: A) Kagi (intends to) hires many employees of Russian origin, who B) live in Belgrade and C) also evidently and publicly hold imperialist views, which D) have an effect on the company and its product.
  - jimbohn 11mo ago
    Note that this isn't "neutral" as in "I like chocolate" vs "You don't like chocolate". Sometimes being "neutral" is pretty damning, more so if you are providing a "neutral" ground for sanctioned individuals or people waiting the $CURRENT_GENOCIDAL_WAR out. I agree with you about not likely being there an A->B->C->D conclusion, but it's a signal about the preferences or lack thereof of the ownership of the company. But really, they can do whatever they prefer.