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Thanks for the summary and the great quote by Henry Ford. What he said is so true. The scary thing is that for most people, their lack of understanding the big

by raamdev 18y ago

Thanks for the summary and the great quote by Henry Ford. What he said is so true. The scary thing is that for most people, their lack of understanding the bigger picture means that when things get really bad, it will happen fast. I'm shocked by how many people simply don't even somewhat understand the way the US financial system works (I can't even say I fully understand it), and by how many of them treat bills and debt as their absolute, life-long moral responsibility. To the bankers, it's all a big game. To the average consumer, it's their entire life. The most important thing I see missing from all this is education. Financial education should be required by every public school (and should be taught by the parents) to help prepare people for the "real world" of managing debt, credit cards, loans, and even mortgages and investments. If everybody understood that filing for bankruptcy (I did after losing 3 investment properties to sub-prime) or downsizing and living a more simple life was perfectly OK to keep your family fed (I went from $2.5k /mo expenses to $800), then we wouldn't have people killing their families and committing suicide because of a few financial issues.

callmeed 18y ago
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to be saying that it's okay for people to renege on debts when convenient. In my opinion, people who take on debt do have a moral responsibility to pay it back. If you don't want that responsibility, don't take on the debt. I understand that bankruptcy is necessary for some–but I would hope people arrive there as a last resort. Teaching people that bankruptcy is a "card up your sleeve" is sending the wrong message.
- ahoyhere 18y ago
  OK, here's what he's trying to say: 1. Individuals, the final end consumer of debt, treat debt as a lifelong obligation. A serious, serious obligation. So much that they chastise each other for bankruptcy on Internet forums. (oh no! someone on the internet is fiscally irresponsible!) And act as if not fulfilling monetary obligations to big, anonymous corporations is tantamount to proving that one is a worthless human being. 2. And yet, at the same time, the same corporations that these very-responsible-debt-paying people owe fealty to, will perpetrate enormous fraud -- of the technical definition and just general "looks like a fraud, smells like a fraud, who cares what the law says" kind. This fraud can fuck not only other such corporations, but the entire financial system, and the country's stability as a whole. Got it? Debt payors are considered horrible people if they do not repay all their private debts. Debt payees, on the other hand, have carte blanche to act however they want and get excused by saying "That's the way free market capitalism works." Thus you have individuals lambasting other individuals, and going "OH NO, you cannot just say that DEBT is NOT a MORAL OBLIGATION!" with regards to individuals who owe, but just shaking their heads and clucking their tongues with regards to the acts of corporations. This is basically a case of the serfs policing themselves, while the nobles are pleased to promote any kind of ignoble acts among themselves.
  - raamdev 18y ago
    Thanks, that's exactly what I was trying to say. And I believe over the long-term, proper education (from an early age) is the only thing that will fix this kind of problem. Buy what you need, not what you want. (OK, buy what you want too, but it should be like a 20:1 ratio!)
  - callmeed 18y ago
    I have no problem with that assessment at all. So long as you're not extrapolating that into "since big corporations are dishonest and fraudulent, then it's ok for me to be also" I think that sort of one-downsmanship would spiral into even worse issues for our economy. And, for the record, I think debt is an obligation for whoever makes it–individual or corporations. If you don't like the way such corporations act a) don't patronize their services, b) work to change the way they are regulated/operate, c) create a startup that disrupts their business model ... but for goodness' sake, don't act like them.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]

by raamdev 18y ago

callmeed 18y ago

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you seem to be saying that it's okay for people to renege on debts when convenient. In my opinion, people who take on debt do have a moral responsibility to pay it back. If you don't want that responsibility, don't take on the debt. I understand that bankruptcy is necessary for some–but I would hope people arrive there as a last resort. Teaching people that bankruptcy is a "card up your sleeve" is sending the wrong message.

ahoyhere 18y ago
OK, here's what he's trying to say: 1. Individuals, the final end consumer of debt, treat debt as a lifelong obligation. A serious, serious obligation. So much that they chastise each other for bankruptcy on Internet forums. (oh no! someone on the internet is fiscally irresponsible!) And act as if not fulfilling monetary obligations to big, anonymous corporations is tantamount to proving that one is a worthless human being. 2. And yet, at the same time, the same corporations that these very-responsible-debt-paying people owe fealty to, will perpetrate enormous fraud -- of the technical definition and just general "looks like a fraud, smells like a fraud, who cares what the law says" kind. This fraud can fuck not only other such corporations, but the entire financial system, and the country's stability as a whole. Got it? Debt payors are considered horrible people if they do not repay all their private debts. Debt payees, on the other hand, have carte blanche to act however they want and get excused by saying "That's the way free market capitalism works." Thus you have individuals lambasting other individuals, and going "OH NO, you cannot just say that DEBT is NOT a MORAL OBLIGATION!" with regards to individuals who owe, but just shaking their heads and clucking their tongues with regards to the acts of corporations. This is basically a case of the serfs policing themselves, while the nobles are pleased to promote any kind of ignoble acts among themselves.
- raamdev 18y ago
  Thanks, that's exactly what I was trying to say. And I believe over the long-term, proper education (from an early age) is the only thing that will fix this kind of problem. Buy what you need, not what you want. (OK, buy what you want too, but it should be like a 20:1 ratio!)
- callmeed 18y ago
  I have no problem with that assessment at all. So long as you're not extrapolating that into "since big corporations are dishonest and fraudulent, then it's ok for me to be also" I think that sort of one-downsmanship would spiral into even worse issues for our economy. And, for the record, I think debt is an obligation for whoever makes it–individual or corporations. If you don't like the way such corporations act a) don't patronize their services, b) work to change the way they are regulated/operate, c) create a startup that disrupts their business model ... but for goodness' sake, don't act like them.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]