4 ms·

No, he's right. The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as

by javert 14y ago

No, he's right. The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here.

_pius 14y ago
The statements made to this person seem innocuous to you?
- javert 14y ago
  The calculator necklace thing is what I was referring to. But I'm speaking from personal experience.
  - _pius 14y ago
    But I'm speaking from personal experience. Yeah, you've really got to watch out for "progressive blacks" like me, we're trouble.
    - javert 14y ago
      Again, I'm just recounting my personal experience. FYI, I grew up and still live in the southern US, where race relations are an acknowledged problem, and where social protocols and culture are still more distinct across races than they are within them. And I'm already somewhat bad in general with social protocols. So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people. I'm saying that, unfortunately,white people do feel uncomfortable talking to them sometimes, or at least, the bar is higher for meaningful social interaction. I think that's a shame, and unfortunately I don't know what to do about it. But I do know that accusing white people of racism for clearly non-racist behavior, as with the calculator-necklace incident, is counterproductive, and (for me) reinforces needlessly distressful things I've experienced. That's what I was trying to get at with my earlier comment.
      - nollidge 14y ago
        > The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people -- 6 hours later -- > So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people Surely you can forgive _pius for assuming you meant what you said.
        javert 14y ago
        You're taking what I said out of context. I said: The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here. As I clarified in my last post, my point was that it is regrettable that the blogger "sent the message" he did. By the way, when you talk about me forgiving _pius, you are obfuscating who is blaming who. I am on the receiving end of blame, not the giving end.
        thwest 14y ago
        If you find yourself in the situation of the calculator-assuming woman, where you feel like you've made a comment that touches on cultural sensitivities, use the moment as a learning experience. Instead of leaving the awkward air, ask them what they are thinking. "oh sorry haha that was a weird assumption, what is it?" Asking to be educated is pretty much the opposite of the mansplaining / whitesplaining that is so painful to the author of qu33riosity, and is almost universally welcomed. A little humility goes a long way.
        nollidge 14y ago
        So you're saying he's deliberately but perhaps covertly telegraphing the message "white people, don't talk to me"? Because if not, "don't talk to progressive blacks" is the message you took away not the one he sent. > I am on the receiving end of blame, not the giving end. Oh, for real? Who blamed you for what? Going back and re-reading your previous post: > But I do know that accusing white people of racism for clearly non-racist behavior, It may be non-racist, but it's still culturally tone-deaf. > as with the calculator-necklace incident, is counterproductive, and (for me) reinforces needlessly distressful things I've experienced. Oh, weird, because the "calculator-necklace incident" probably reinforced some needlessly distressful (racist, dehumanizing, othering, outgroup-reinforcing) things for the author. Why should he make your distress a priority when you care none for his?
    - ryanwaggoner 14y ago
      Way to make his point.
prickappa 14y ago
So much this. The calculator comment was in no way racist.
nollidge 14y ago
Or maybe the basic principle is to try to understand the perspective of the person you're talking to. Don't speak defensively - be open and willing to acknowledge and apologize and correct yourself when a mistake you make is pointed out to you, rather than retreating into racial anxiety. Progressive white people too frequently have a fear of saying the wrong thing because they're insecure with their racial views. Read more, gain perspective, learn how much you don't know about the experience of minorities, and then approach conversations with people of color with a deferential attitude. Maybe that's too much work, but it's the price of tending to a multicultural society that is growing out of the ashes of a monocultural one and I think it's worth it.

by javert 14y ago

_pius 14y ago

The statements made to this person seem innocuous to you?

javert 14y ago
The calculator necklace thing is what I was referring to. But I'm speaking from personal experience.
- _pius 14y ago
  But I'm speaking from personal experience. Yeah, you've really got to watch out for "progressive blacks" like me, we're trouble.
  - javert 14y ago
    Again, I'm just recounting my personal experience. FYI, I grew up and still live in the southern US, where race relations are an acknowledged problem, and where social protocols and culture are still more distinct across races than they are within them. And I'm already somewhat bad in general with social protocols. So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people. I'm saying that, unfortunately,white people do feel uncomfortable talking to them sometimes, or at least, the bar is higher for meaningful social interaction. I think that's a shame, and unfortunately I don't know what to do about it. But I do know that accusing white people of racism for clearly non-racist behavior, as with the calculator-necklace incident, is counterproductive, and (for me) reinforces needlessly distressful things I've experienced. That's what I was trying to get at with my earlier comment.
    - nollidge 14y ago
      > The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people -- 6 hours later -- > So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people Surely you can forgive _pius for assuming you meant what you said.
      - javert 14y ago
        You're taking what I said out of context. I said: The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here. As I clarified in my last post, my point was that it is regrettable that the blogger "sent the message" he did. By the way, when you talk about me forgiving _pius, you are obfuscating who is blaming who. I am on the receiving end of blame, not the giving end.
        thwest 14y ago
        If you find yourself in the situation of the calculator-assuming woman, where you feel like you've made a comment that touches on cultural sensitivities, use the moment as a learning experience. Instead of leaving the awkward air, ask them what they are thinking. "oh sorry haha that was a weird assumption, what is it?" Asking to be educated is pretty much the opposite of the mansplaining / whitesplaining that is so painful to the author of qu33riosity, and is almost universally welcomed. A little humility goes a long way.
        nollidge 14y ago
        So you're saying he's deliberately but perhaps covertly telegraphing the message "white people, don't talk to me"? Because if not, "don't talk to progressive blacks" is the message you took away not the one he sent. > I am on the receiving end of blame, not the giving end. Oh, for real? Who blamed you for what? Going back and re-reading your previous post: > But I do know that accusing white people of racism for clearly non-racist behavior, It may be non-racist, but it's still culturally tone-deaf. > as with the calculator-necklace incident, is counterproductive, and (for me) reinforces needlessly distressful things I've experienced. Oh, weird, because the "calculator-necklace incident" probably reinforced some needlessly distressful (racist, dehumanizing, othering, outgroup-reinforcing) things for the author. Why should he make your distress a priority when you care none for his?
  - ryanwaggoner 14y ago
    Way to make his point.

prickappa 14y ago

So much this. The calculator comment was in no way racist.

nollidge 14y ago

Or maybe the basic principle is to try to understand the perspective of the person you're talking to. Don't speak defensively - be open and willing to acknowledge and apologize and correct yourself when a mistake you make is pointed out to you, rather than retreating into racial anxiety. Progressive white people too frequently have a fear of saying the wrong thing because they're insecure with their racial views. Read more, gain perspective, learn how much you don't know about the experience of minorities, and then approach conversations with people of color with a deferential attitude. Maybe that's too much work, but it's the price of tending to a multicultural society that is growing out of the ashes of a monocultural one and I think it's worth it.