6 ms·

The happiest software developers are those who write HTML, CSS, PHP, and just a sprinkle of JS like they used to do 20 years ago.

by trvz 11mo ago

andrei_says_ 11mo ago
CSS has been steadily improving across browsers, addressing pain points and real world scenarios. CSS grid and subgrid, nesting, variables, container queries, css layers… In 2025 it’s a pleasure to work with. Props to the amazing people involved in pushing the standards forward.
- JacobThreeThree 11mo ago
  Totally agree. There's no real complaints, and the coalescing around the Chrome layout engine means far less compatibility issues in general.
- ayaros 11mo ago
  I can't argue with this. Then again, writing stylesheets is still one of those things where, if you're not careful, everything spirals out of control. Often I'll make changes and wonder why nothing's happening and realize something was overridden by another rule somewhere, or I was mixing up two properties, or some other silly thing... I also find it's a bit awkward to write var(--foo) every time... I wish I could just write --foo... I suppose there's a grammar issue somewhere, or maybe it would have increased the complexity of implementations of CSS.
  - brazukadev 11mo ago
    I dont mind the var(--foo) but I wish I could do var(attr(foo)) to use a var defined in the attribute foo.
    - Latty 11mo ago
      `attr()` is being updated to basically do that, the modern spec lets you specify a datatype and access any attribute (with some exceptions, you can't get URL types for security reasons), then use it generally. E.g: aspect-ratio: attr(width px) / attr(height px);
      - silverwind 11mo ago
        Interestingly, the bug for this feature is already 17 years old (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435426 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435426).
  - alwillis 11mo ago
    > Then again, writing stylesheets is still one of those things where, if you're not careful, everything spirals out of control. Often I'll make changes and wonder why nothing's happening and realize something was overridden by another rule somewhere… It doesn't have to be this way; just write your CSS using Inverted Triangle CSS (ITCSS) [1] and these issues go away. [1]: https://matthiasott.com/notes/how-i-structure-my-css https://matthiasott.com/notes/how-i-structure-my-css
- interstice 11mo ago
  To a large degree yes, but it blows my mind how complex some of the new features are when what seems like basics are still nonexistent. Root level variables for example (think media queries).
zem 11mo ago
the happiest software developers are those who write apps that run in a single command line process on a local linux machine (:
- bragr 11mo ago
  Have you ever actually met backend Linux engineers? They are, typically anyways, a very salty and unhappy bunch. I definitely include myself in that lot as something I'm working on.
  - zem 11mo ago
    yeah, I work on commandline based compilers and code analysis tools and I'm very happy doing it! apart from the work itself being interesting, I find it really nice to just have to care about stdin, stdout, and filesystem access. I enjoy working on desktop gui apps too, but at least to my mind IPC and networking add a layer of unpleasantly error-prone concerns to deal with, and web apps dial that up to eleven.
    - marssaxman 11mo ago
      Hear, hear. Compilers are so much fun: you get data in, you put data out, and in between it's all algorithms and data structures. Nothing but the good stuff.
afavour 11mo ago
Eh. I've found that increasing use of CSS variables / custom properties has made me a much happier developer. Sometimes new things aren't necessarily bad.
- ayaros 11mo ago
  Because you can actually parameterize things. It's wonderful!
- graemep 11mo ago
  I would say that is all the more reason for writing HTML and CSS with a sprinkling of JS - you need less JS for the same result, you need CSS frameworks less. I am not so sure about PHP, but I think the intent is more "do it in the backend where possible" which i agree with.
mystifyingpoi 11mo ago
Then they drag-and-drop the project folder into FileZilla connected to their FTP shared hosting and send the invoice to the client. Although... while this seems like heaven at first, seeing this being done in practice, it is hell. It's just people don't know they are in hell. They got used to it.
- elaus 11mo ago
  My job requires the whole modern pipeline with Vue front ends, Quarkus services and k8s deployments and it's suitable for what we do in our teams. But I have dozens of websites I built and am still building today in the way described and it works just as well for me. As a single developer with "simple" websites it's just great to have so little mental load when fixing some small things. Admittedly I have a small script to upload stuff via ftp (if ssh/rsync is not available), so no FileZilla anymore :)
  - serial_dev 11mo ago
    I, too, settled on a minimalist process for deploying my blog, just build it with a Hugo, copy the files over to a cheap server, and there you go, deployed. It's the right tool for the job (for me).
    - lelanthran 11mo ago
      > I, too, settled on a minimalist process for deploying my blog, just build it with a Hugo, copy the files over to a cheap server, and there you go, deployed. Meh. That's over-engineered[1] /s :-) -------------------- [1] I have a bash script that produces the site from markdown snippets, commits it to a repo and the VPS pulls master periodically.
    - Firehawke 11mo ago
      Or, for that matter, using GitHub Actions to do the final Hugo build and remote deployment when you do a git push.
      - 11mo ago
Minor49er 11mo ago
No way. There have been so many nice improvements to all of those languages over the last two decades that make development so much safer to implement, faster to code, and easier to test. I personally would lose my mind if I had to go back to the way things were running 20 years ago
draw_down 11mo ago
[dead]
GaryBluto 11mo ago
I'd also say HTML4 is much nicer to write than HTML5. I know it's technically "obsolete", but it was more pleasant to work with (and allows your site to be accessible on almost every browser/version).
- foldr 11mo ago
 There must be some confusion here. HTML 5 simplified doctypes, codified rules for interpreting malformed HTML, and added some new tags. Unless you’re using some crazy deprecated tags, you should just be able to write HTML4 and update the doctype.
 - GaryBluto 11mo ago
 By HTML4 I mean non-use of HTML5/CSS3 features. I'd also add that, while still supported by browsers, HTML5 deprecated lots of elements and parameters that I find handy.
 - MarsIronPI 11mo ago
 Which deprecated HTML4 features do you use? Also, what do you think of the more semantic elements in HTML5 such as <date>?
 - GaryBluto 11mo ago
 I occasionally use font tags. As an example, this: Your text here Looks way better than: to me.
 MarsIronPI 11mo ago
 May I ask why you compare the element to using inline style rather than giving the a class and styling it in a separate stylesheet? Doing it this way also allows users to override your style with extensions like Stylus. (Again, not trying to criticize, just trying to understand.)
paulddraper 11mo ago
Funnily enough, I did all that. And it made me want to claw my eyes out. Browser idiosyncrasies, horrendous security vulnerabilities, the blood sacrifices to do basic things with CSS, trying to debug in IE, the daily “maybe Flash isn’t that bad” introspection. There are many good things about this world. 2005 web dev is not among them.
- lelanthran 11mo ago
  > Browser idiosyncrasies, horrendous security vulnerabilities, the blood sacrifices to do basic things with CSS, ... > There are many good things about this world. 2005 web dev is not among them. Maybe, but the 2005 process will work better now, because the current process was started as a way to paper over all those > Browser idiosyncrasies, horrendous security vulnerabilities, the blood sacrifices to do basic things with CSS, Now that those things are smaller issues, "Write JS, copy it to the server" is not so stupid. Especially if you've got mostly web components.
  - paulddraper 11mo ago
    You can pry flexbox out my cold dead hands. Go and vertically center a div in whatever way you see fit.
    - lelanthran 11mo ago
      That was my point, with the tech improvements we now have in frontend many of the reasons for abandoning the 2005 process becomes moot. New tech makes the old process more viable, not less.
      - paulddraper 11mo ago
        The article is about CSS properties. Is that new tech or new process?
        lelanthran 11mo ago
bossyTeacher 11mo ago
Given the ageist in tech, I would guess most devs actually writing code were still children 20 years ago and some were still babies so I don't think they are used to life before build tool JS. And writing plain js is outrageous like stepping outside in your underwear.
mrcsharp 11mo ago
Swap PHP with C# and we're in full agreement. I'm not a CSS expert but being able to do so much with it before having to reach for JS is fantastic. And with Blazor, some of that JS sprinkle isn't even needed anymore.

The happiest software developers are those who write HTML, CSS, PHP, and just a sprinkle of JS like they used to do 20 years ago.

by trvz 11mo ago

The happiest software developers are those who write HTML, CSS, PHP, and just a sprinkle of JS like they used to do 20 years ago.

andrei_says_ 11mo ago

CSS has been steadily improving across browsers, addressing pain points and real world scenarios. CSS grid and subgrid, nesting, variables, container queries, css layers… In 2025 it’s a pleasure to work with. Props to the amazing people involved in pushing the standards forward.

JacobThreeThree 11mo ago
Totally agree. There's no real complaints, and the coalescing around the Chrome layout engine means far less compatibility issues in general.
ayaros 11mo ago
I can't argue with this. Then again, writing stylesheets is still one of those things where, if you're not careful, everything spirals out of control. Often I'll make changes and wonder why nothing's happening and realize something was overridden by another rule somewhere, or I was mixing up two properties, or some other silly thing... I also find it's a bit awkward to write var(--foo) every time... I wish I could just write --foo... I suppose there's a grammar issue somewhere, or maybe it would have increased the complexity of implementations of CSS.
- brazukadev 11mo ago
  I dont mind the var(--foo) but I wish I could do var(attr(foo)) to use a var defined in the attribute foo.
  - Latty 11mo ago
    `attr()` is being updated to basically do that, the modern spec lets you specify a datatype and access any attribute (with some exceptions, you can't get URL types for security reasons), then use it generally. E.g: aspect-ratio: attr(width px) / attr(height px);
    - silverwind 11mo ago
      Interestingly, the bug for this feature is already 17 years old (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435426 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435426).
- alwillis 11mo ago
  > Then again, writing stylesheets is still one of those things where, if you're not careful, everything spirals out of control. Often I'll make changes and wonder why nothing's happening and realize something was overridden by another rule somewhere… It doesn't have to be this way; just write your CSS using Inverted Triangle CSS (ITCSS) [1] and these issues go away. [1]: https://matthiasott.com/notes/how-i-structure-my-css https://matthiasott.com/notes/how-i-structure-my-css
interstice 11mo ago
To a large degree yes, but it blows my mind how complex some of the new features are when what seems like basics are still nonexistent. Root level variables for example (think media queries).

zem 11mo ago

the happiest software developers are those who write apps that run in a single command line process on a local linux machine (:

bragr 11mo ago
Have you ever actually met backend Linux engineers? They are, typically anyways, a very salty and unhappy bunch. I definitely include myself in that lot as something I'm working on.
- zem 11mo ago
  yeah, I work on commandline based compilers and code analysis tools and I'm very happy doing it! apart from the work itself being interesting, I find it really nice to just have to care about stdin, stdout, and filesystem access. I enjoy working on desktop gui apps too, but at least to my mind IPC and networking add a layer of unpleasantly error-prone concerns to deal with, and web apps dial that up to eleven.
  - marssaxman 11mo ago
    Hear, hear. Compilers are so much fun: you get data in, you put data out, and in between it's all algorithms and data structures. Nothing but the good stuff.

afavour 11mo ago

Eh. I've found that increasing use of CSS variables / custom properties has made me a much happier developer. Sometimes new things aren't necessarily bad.

ayaros 11mo ago
Because you can actually parameterize things. It's wonderful!
graemep 11mo ago
I would say that is all the more reason for writing HTML and CSS with a sprinkling of JS - you need less JS for the same result, you need CSS frameworks less. I am not so sure about PHP, but I think the intent is more "do it in the backend where possible" which i agree with.

mystifyingpoi 11mo ago

Then they drag-and-drop the project folder into FileZilla connected to their FTP shared hosting and send the invoice to the client. Although... while this seems like heaven at first, seeing this being done in practice, it is hell. It's just people don't know they are in hell. They got used to it.

elaus 11mo ago
My job requires the whole modern pipeline with Vue front ends, Quarkus services and k8s deployments and it's suitable for what we do in our teams. But I have dozens of websites I built and am still building today in the way described and it works just as well for me. As a single developer with "simple" websites it's just great to have so little mental load when fixing some small things. Admittedly I have a small script to upload stuff via ftp (if ssh/rsync is not available), so no FileZilla anymore :)
- serial_dev 11mo ago
  I, too, settled on a minimalist process for deploying my blog, just build it with a Hugo, copy the files over to a cheap server, and there you go, deployed. It's the right tool for the job (for me).
  - lelanthran 11mo ago
    > I, too, settled on a minimalist process for deploying my blog, just build it with a Hugo, copy the files over to a cheap server, and there you go, deployed. Meh. That's over-engineered[1] /s :-) -------------------- [1] I have a bash script that produces the site from markdown snippets, commits it to a repo and the VPS pulls master periodically.
  - Firehawke 11mo ago
    Or, for that matter, using GitHub Actions to do the final Hugo build and remote deployment when you do a git push.
    - 11mo ago

Minor49er 11mo ago

No way. There have been so many nice improvements to all of those languages over the last two decades that make development so much safer to implement, faster to code, and easier to test. I personally would lose my mind if I had to go back to the way things were running 20 years ago

draw_down 11mo ago

[dead]

GaryBluto 11mo ago

I'd also say HTML4 is much nicer to write than HTML5. I know it's technically "obsolete", but it was more pleasant to work with (and allows your site to be accessible on almost every browser/version).

foldr 11mo ago
There must be some confusion here. HTML 5 simplified doctypes, codified rules for interpreting malformed HTML, and added some new tags. Unless you’re using some crazy deprecated tags, you should just be able to write HTML4 and update the doctype.
- GaryBluto 11mo ago
 By HTML4 I mean non-use of HTML5/CSS3 features. I'd also add that, while still supported by browsers, HTML5 deprecated lots of elements and parameters that I find handy.
 - MarsIronPI 11mo ago
 Which deprecated HTML4 features do you use? Also, what do you think of the more semantic elements in HTML5 such as <date>?
 - GaryBluto 11mo ago
 I occasionally use font tags. As an example, this: Your text here Looks way better than: to me.
 - MarsIronPI 11mo ago
 May I ask why you compare the element to using inline style rather than giving the a class and styling it in a separate stylesheet? Doing it this way also allows users to override your style with extensions like Stylus. (Again, not trying to criticize, just trying to understand.)

paulddraper 11mo ago

Funnily enough, I did all that. And it made me want to claw my eyes out. Browser idiosyncrasies, horrendous security vulnerabilities, the blood sacrifices to do basic things with CSS, trying to debug in IE, the daily “maybe Flash isn’t that bad” introspection. There are many good things about this world. 2005 web dev is not among them.

lelanthran 11mo ago
> Browser idiosyncrasies, horrendous security vulnerabilities, the blood sacrifices to do basic things with CSS, ... > There are many good things about this world. 2005 web dev is not among them. Maybe, but the 2005 process will work better now, because the current process was started as a way to paper over all those > Browser idiosyncrasies, horrendous security vulnerabilities, the blood sacrifices to do basic things with CSS, Now that those things are smaller issues, "Write JS, copy it to the server" is not so stupid. Especially if you've got mostly web components.
- paulddraper 11mo ago
  You can pry flexbox out my cold dead hands. Go and vertically center a div in whatever way you see fit.
  - lelanthran 11mo ago
    That was my point, with the tech improvements we now have in frontend many of the reasons for abandoning the 2005 process becomes moot. New tech makes the old process more viable, not less.
    - paulddraper 11mo ago
      The article is about CSS properties. Is that new tech or new process?
      - lelanthran 11mo ago

bossyTeacher 11mo ago

Given the ageist in tech, I would guess most devs actually writing code were still children 20 years ago and some were still babies so I don't think they are used to life before build tool JS. And writing plain js is outrageous like stepping outside in your underwear.

mrcsharp 11mo ago

Swap PHP with C# and we're in full agreement. I'm not a CSS expert but being able to do so much with it before having to reach for JS is fantastic. And with Blazor, some of that JS sprinkle isn't even needed anymore.