5 ms·

I have a dual pentium pro 200 that runs gentoo and openbsd, but rust doesn't ship i586 binaries, only i686+. So I would need to compile on a separate computer t

by tyfon 11mo ago

I have a dual pentium pro 200 that runs gentoo and openbsd, but rust doesn't ship i586 binaries, only i686+. So I would need to compile on a separate computer to use any software that is using rust. There is already an initrd package tool I can't use since it is rust based, but I don't use initrd on that machine so it is not a problem so far. The computer runs modern linux just fine, I just wish the rust team would at least release an "i386" boostrap binary that actually works on all i386 like all of the other compilers. "We don't care about retro computers" is not a good argument imho, especially when there is an easy fix. It was the same when the Xorg project patched out support for RAMDAC and obsoleted a bunch of drivers instead of fixing it easily. I had to fix the S3 driver myself to be able to use my S3 trio 64v+ with a new Xorg server. /rant off

ondra 11mo ago
Pentium Pro is the first i686 CPU, so you should be fine.
ForHackernews 11mo ago
I mean... Pentium Pro is 30 years old at this point. I don't think it's unreasonable that modern software isn't targeting those machines.
- yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
  So anyways, here's the netbsd docs for running the latest release on VAX: https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/vax/ https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/vax/
  - ForHackernews 11mo ago
    Obscure retro OS runs on obscure retro hardware you say?
    - yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
      NetBSD isn't a retro OS, nor is it particularly obscure. (For that matter, VAX isn't obscure, though it's very retro.)
      - ForHackernews 11mo ago
        Maybe not for hacker news. In the real world, it's plenty obscure. Poll your family at Thanksgiving. https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-netbsd https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-netbsd > NetBSD is used by less than 0.1% of all the websites whose operating system we know.
        yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
        I would expect the same number of laypeople to know about NetBSD and Debian (zero). Which gets neatly to an argument that I like for this kind of thing: Don't be so quick to throw out the long tail, because you're on it.
ShroudedNight 11mo ago
I thought the Pentium Pro _was_ a 686? Wikipedia seems to correlate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro, as do discussions on CMOV: https://stackoverflow.com/a/4429563 https://stackoverflow.com/a/4429563
- tyfon 11mo ago
  Yes, sorry I remembered incorrectly. The rust compiler claims to be i686 and the CPU is i686 too, but the rust compiler is using Pentium 4 only instructions so it doesn't actually work for i686.
  - ShroudedNight 11mo ago
    Yeah, that sucks. I assume this is SSE2?
    - ShroudedNight 11mo ago
      It does look like there are legitimate issues with x87 floating-point: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/114479 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/114479
      - gpm 11mo ago
        Related from a couple of days ago: A time-traveling door bug in Half Life 2 https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589875974658415 https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589875974658415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46009962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46009962
    - tyfon 11mo ago
      That is correct :) Edit: I see from the sister post that it is actually llvm and not rust, so I'm half barking up the wrong tree. But somehow this is not an issue with gcc and friends.
cogman10 11mo ago
This sounds like it's fun. However, I have to ask, why should the linux world cater to supporting 30 year old systems? Just because it scratches an itch? You can grab a $150 NUC which will run circles around this dual pentium pro system while also using a faction of the power. You obviously have to do a lot of extra work, including having a second system, just to keep this old system running. More work than it'd take to migrate to a new CPU. [1] https://www.amazon.com/KAMRUI-AK1PLUS-Processor-Computer-Ethernet/dp/B0DZ1VL4JJ?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DcN8MrQE_vyXiz3sBB79_Ve0hILAf17_8JD3f2fRp5Rv8JtrJI27yJzET8uzrYAqoXJdD9q5I5JLGSEjC9GJfQReSOXmHcy9F3intzRTrN78Y2lH7AlWnsASWwiHsRf5Igspfc7-bNOmJvlFNVPCdGlAQ3bE5vIuSr1s8f4zjVlHMv3SlM255eojkmbUYTuwKr5vqJO2hBOIJ6mOBdxvozv2dCZGzl0gxeydA3_1CMM.WEHO7sJIc1DLeg7sohfxhiy0MVi1XouU9iATTWynNrM&dib_tag=se&keywords=x86+mini+pc&qid=1764089768&sr=8-18 https://www.amazon.com/KAMRUI-AK1PLUS-Processor-Computer-Eth...
- tyfon 11mo ago
  The system is actually running fine standalone since I have been able to avoid rust software. As to why it should cater to it, it's more that there is no need to remove something that already works just to remove it. It is possible to compile rustc on another system so it supports i586 and below. Just a small change in the command line options. And it doesn't degrade the newer systems. I have plenty of faster machines, I just enjoy not throwing things away or making odd systems work. It's called having fun :)
  - cogman10 11mo ago
    > it's more that there is no need to remove something that already works just to remove it. There actually is. Support for old systems isn't free. Mistakes in the past are hard to fix and verify on these old systems. Particularly, the fact that there's not a whole lot of devs with access to dual pentium pro systems to verify changes which would affect such systems. That means that if there's a break in the kernel or elsewhere that ultimately impacts such system they'll hear from a random retro computing enthusiast which takes time from everyone to resolve and review patches to fix the retro computer. Time is precious for open source software. It's in limited supply. I get doing this for fun or the hell of it. But you do need to understand there are costs involved.
dontlaugh 11mo ago
Surely retro hardware is fine with retro software.
gpm 11mo ago
> "We don't care about retro computers" is not a good argument imho, It absolutely is. If you want to do the work to support <open source software> for <purpose> you're welcome to do so, but you aren't entitled to have other people do so. There's some narrow exceptions like accessibility support, but retro computing ain't that.

by tyfon 11mo ago

ondra 11mo ago

Pentium Pro is the first i686 CPU, so you should be fine.

ForHackernews 11mo ago

I mean... Pentium Pro is 30 years old at this point. I don't think it's unreasonable that modern software isn't targeting those machines.

yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
So anyways, here's the netbsd docs for running the latest release on VAX: https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/vax/ https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/vax/
- ForHackernews 11mo ago
  Obscure retro OS runs on obscure retro hardware you say?
  - yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
    NetBSD isn't a retro OS, nor is it particularly obscure. (For that matter, VAX isn't obscure, though it's very retro.)
    - ForHackernews 11mo ago
      Maybe not for hacker news. In the real world, it's plenty obscure. Poll your family at Thanksgiving. https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-netbsd https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-netbsd > NetBSD is used by less than 0.1% of all the websites whose operating system we know.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 11mo ago
        I would expect the same number of laypeople to know about NetBSD and Debian (zero). Which gets neatly to an argument that I like for this kind of thing: Don't be so quick to throw out the long tail, because you're on it.

ShroudedNight 11mo ago

I thought the Pentium Pro _was_ a 686? Wikipedia seems to correlate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro, as do discussions on CMOV: https://stackoverflow.com/a/4429563 https://stackoverflow.com/a/4429563

tyfon 11mo ago
Yes, sorry I remembered incorrectly. The rust compiler claims to be i686 and the CPU is i686 too, but the rust compiler is using Pentium 4 only instructions so it doesn't actually work for i686.
- ShroudedNight 11mo ago
  Yeah, that sucks. I assume this is SSE2?
  - ShroudedNight 11mo ago
    It does look like there are legitimate issues with x87 floating-point: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/114479 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/114479
    - gpm 11mo ago
      Related from a couple of days ago: A time-traveling door bug in Half Life 2 https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589875974658415 https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589875974658415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46009962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46009962
  - tyfon 11mo ago
    That is correct :) Edit: I see from the sister post that it is actually llvm and not rust, so I'm half barking up the wrong tree. But somehow this is not an issue with gcc and friends.

cogman10 11mo ago

This sounds like it's fun. However, I have to ask, why should the linux world cater to supporting 30 year old systems? Just because it scratches an itch? You can grab a $150 NUC which will run circles around this dual pentium pro system while also using a faction of the power. You obviously have to do a lot of extra work, including having a second system, just to keep this old system running. More work than it'd take to migrate to a new CPU. [1] https://www.amazon.com/KAMRUI-AK1PLUS-Processor-Computer-Ethernet/dp/B0DZ1VL4JJ?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DcN8MrQE_vyXiz3sBB79_Ve0hILAf17_8JD3f2fRp5Rv8JtrJI27yJzET8uzrYAqoXJdD9q5I5JLGSEjC9GJfQReSOXmHcy9F3intzRTrN78Y2lH7AlWnsASWwiHsRf5Igspfc7-bNOmJvlFNVPCdGlAQ3bE5vIuSr1s8f4zjVlHMv3SlM255eojkmbUYTuwKr5vqJO2hBOIJ6mOBdxvozv2dCZGzl0gxeydA3_1CMM.WEHO7sJIc1DLeg7sohfxhiy0MVi1XouU9iATTWynNrM&dib_tag=se&keywords=x86+mini+pc&qid=1764089768&sr=8-18 https://www.amazon.com/KAMRUI-AK1PLUS-Processor-Computer-Eth...

tyfon 11mo ago
The system is actually running fine standalone since I have been able to avoid rust software. As to why it should cater to it, it's more that there is no need to remove something that already works just to remove it. It is possible to compile rustc on another system so it supports i586 and below. Just a small change in the command line options. And it doesn't degrade the newer systems. I have plenty of faster machines, I just enjoy not throwing things away or making odd systems work. It's called having fun :)
- cogman10 11mo ago
  > it's more that there is no need to remove something that already works just to remove it. There actually is. Support for old systems isn't free. Mistakes in the past are hard to fix and verify on these old systems. Particularly, the fact that there's not a whole lot of devs with access to dual pentium pro systems to verify changes which would affect such systems. That means that if there's a break in the kernel or elsewhere that ultimately impacts such system they'll hear from a random retro computing enthusiast which takes time from everyone to resolve and review patches to fix the retro computer. Time is precious for open source software. It's in limited supply. I get doing this for fun or the hell of it. But you do need to understand there are costs involved.

dontlaugh 11mo ago

Surely retro hardware is fine with retro software.

gpm 11mo ago

> "We don't care about retro computers" is not a good argument imho, It absolutely is. If you want to do the work to support <open source software> for <purpose> you're welcome to do so, but you aren't entitled to have other people do so. There's some narrow exceptions like accessibility support, but retro computing ain't that.