4 ms·

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

by itake 11mo ago

limagnolia 11mo ago
Is OT "overtime"? How is it legal not to pay overtime in any US factory? Unless they are salaried (exempt)?
- TimorousBestie 11mo ago
  A lot of the workers there probably are exempt under American law. I’m not an expert on Taiwanese labor laws but their list of exempt labor categories in the LSA is much shorter than the one in the American FLSA.
- itake 11mo ago
  yeah, overtime. My cousin is an engineer at TSMC (who worked both in Tainin and now in Arizona) and is w-2 exempt.
j_walter 11mo ago
TW workers have a majority of their compensation in bonuses, so the OT portion is quite small and many do not even bother to ask for it. The overall compensation between a TW and US engineer at TSMC is also significant. Not to mention the lowest paid hourly workers...where in TW they make 2-3X minimum wage, but in the US it's like 1.25X.
- itake 11mo ago
  That is not what I heard from my cousin at TSMC. The OT gives the workers a “living wage”. Most of his coworkers charge OT every week of the year. He admitted, even with their OT and bonuses, he probably makes more than them w2 salaries. But my point still remains: if they want US (or TW) folks to work more hours, they need to pay for those hours.
  - j_walter 11mo ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Semiconductors/comments/18x5vr5/semiconductor_engineering_pay_10000_in_taiwan/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Semiconductors/comments/18x5vr5/sem... This reddit post captures what I've seen at TSMC in Taiwan. $120K is normal pay at the director level...engineers make $2500-5000 a month. TSMC AZ starting pay for a new college grad w/ BS is probably just under $100K/year with just salary, with the potential to make over $120K within a few years with full vested bonuses.
    - itake 11mo ago
      I think your numbers match what my cousin shared. In both my conversations with my cousin and in the reddit post, it is unclear if reported salaries are take-home or don't include the OT and bonuses, but I don't get your point? My point is: Engineers in Taiwan work more hours because they are paid to work more hours (OT). Engineers in the USA are not paid more if they work 35 hours or 60 hours. If TSMC wants to address the culture gap (get the Americans to work more), TSMC should pay up.
      - ksec 11mo ago
        >My point is: Engineers in Taiwan work more hours because they are paid to work more hours (OT). I can 100% tell you this is not true.
lazide 11mo ago
Hahaha. The work culture between TW and the US is night and day - and it isn’t flattering for the US.
- bnjms 11mo ago
  How so? Are the Americans relatively lazy or just unwilling to put in tedious but necessary extended hours?
  - lazide 11mo ago
    The entire approach is different. Especially with Taiwanese engineers, their entire focus is whatever work they are doing. Everything else (quite literally), their wives handle. Americans typically ask for things like work life balance, non abusive working hours, etc. they also don’t (anymore) have the type of family life setup that allows them to actually focus so much - being pulled into child care duties, or taking care of family members, or whatever their next vacation should be, etc. The general attitude is also more ‘yeah whatever’ to some extent. The amount of singular obsessive engineering you get out of one vs the other is hard to compare.
    - agentifysh 11mo ago
      hmmm this is interesting I was always the impression Taiwanese wives were more progressive and men had to do lot more lifting vs other regional cultures in east asia my original thinking after reading some of the anecdotes from TSMC engineers is that they were obsessively dedicated which means extreme hours from North American culture its also the same in places like Samsung where the company treats employers very well with perks and long career stability but its not free always requires huge sacrifice I'd imagine similar to Japanese conglomerates. I'm not sure which is better in America its definitely transactional relationship but it also comes with stability issues relatively compared to what these East Asian giants offer but at the cost of not being able to switch if and when you find yourselves at odds. Not sure what it was like at Nokia but also another conglomerate that ultimately folded under competition and also a country with more stringent labor/life constraints that you would find less enforced in East Asia. Getting a bit distracted here but noting how much culture plays a role in these large companies and their management styles.

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

by itake 11mo ago

Perhaps if the US workers earned OT like TW workers do, the "culture" gap would shrink.

limagnolia 11mo ago

Is OT "overtime"? How is it legal not to pay overtime in any US factory? Unless they are salaried (exempt)?

TimorousBestie 11mo ago
A lot of the workers there probably are exempt under American law. I’m not an expert on Taiwanese labor laws but their list of exempt labor categories in the LSA is much shorter than the one in the American FLSA.
itake 11mo ago
yeah, overtime. My cousin is an engineer at TSMC (who worked both in Tainin and now in Arizona) and is w-2 exempt.

j_walter 11mo ago

TW workers have a majority of their compensation in bonuses, so the OT portion is quite small and many do not even bother to ask for it. The overall compensation between a TW and US engineer at TSMC is also significant. Not to mention the lowest paid hourly workers...where in TW they make 2-3X minimum wage, but in the US it's like 1.25X.

itake 11mo ago
That is not what I heard from my cousin at TSMC. The OT gives the workers a “living wage”. Most of his coworkers charge OT every week of the year. He admitted, even with their OT and bonuses, he probably makes more than them w2 salaries. But my point still remains: if they want US (or TW) folks to work more hours, they need to pay for those hours.
- j_walter 11mo ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/Semiconductors/comments/18x5vr5/semiconductor_engineering_pay_10000_in_taiwan/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Semiconductors/comments/18x5vr5/sem... This reddit post captures what I've seen at TSMC in Taiwan. $120K is normal pay at the director level...engineers make $2500-5000 a month. TSMC AZ starting pay for a new college grad w/ BS is probably just under $100K/year with just salary, with the potential to make over $120K within a few years with full vested bonuses.
  - itake 11mo ago
    I think your numbers match what my cousin shared. In both my conversations with my cousin and in the reddit post, it is unclear if reported salaries are take-home or don't include the OT and bonuses, but I don't get your point? My point is: Engineers in Taiwan work more hours because they are paid to work more hours (OT). Engineers in the USA are not paid more if they work 35 hours or 60 hours. If TSMC wants to address the culture gap (get the Americans to work more), TSMC should pay up.
    - ksec 11mo ago
      >My point is: Engineers in Taiwan work more hours because they are paid to work more hours (OT). I can 100% tell you this is not true.

lazide 11mo ago

Hahaha. The work culture between TW and the US is night and day - and it isn’t flattering for the US.

bnjms 11mo ago
How so? Are the Americans relatively lazy or just unwilling to put in tedious but necessary extended hours?
- lazide 11mo ago
  The entire approach is different. Especially with Taiwanese engineers, their entire focus is whatever work they are doing. Everything else (quite literally), their wives handle. Americans typically ask for things like work life balance, non abusive working hours, etc. they also don’t (anymore) have the type of family life setup that allows them to actually focus so much - being pulled into child care duties, or taking care of family members, or whatever their next vacation should be, etc. The general attitude is also more ‘yeah whatever’ to some extent. The amount of singular obsessive engineering you get out of one vs the other is hard to compare.
  - agentifysh 11mo ago
    hmmm this is interesting I was always the impression Taiwanese wives were more progressive and men had to do lot more lifting vs other regional cultures in east asia my original thinking after reading some of the anecdotes from TSMC engineers is that they were obsessively dedicated which means extreme hours from North American culture its also the same in places like Samsung where the company treats employers very well with perks and long career stability but its not free always requires huge sacrifice I'd imagine similar to Japanese conglomerates. I'm not sure which is better in America its definitely transactional relationship but it also comes with stability issues relatively compared to what these East Asian giants offer but at the cost of not being able to switch if and when you find yourselves at odds. Not sure what it was like at Nokia but also another conglomerate that ultimately folded under competition and also a country with more stringent labor/life constraints that you would find less enforced in East Asia. Getting a bit distracted here but noting how much culture plays a role in these large companies and their management styles.