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For what it's worth, Micay has a long history of accusing other people of slandering the project without providing any evidence or rebuttals. When asked for de

For what it's worth, Micay has a long history of accusing other people of slandering the project without providing any evidence or rebuttals. When asked for details, he gets defensive and accusatory, then creates multiple sockpuppet accounts to argue the same points over and over.

neilv 11mo ago
"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
- protimewaster 11mo ago
  I was going to say something along these lines. There was a post on the GrapheneOS forums a while back, from Micay, claiming that a well-known YouTuber who had backtracked on recommending GrapheneOS (because of Micay's behavior, according to the YouTuber) had probably actually backtracked because the YouTuber was financially involved with a competing project. My initial reaction to the post was, "Oh, I guess this is that paranoia I've heard about with Micay." My thought was reenforced when it was further claimed, in that thread, that the YouTuber was active in a forum well known for online bullying of people they don't like. The whole thing definitely sounded paranoid. In the thread, though, there was in fact linked paperwork where the YouTuber had registered the company in question, and also links to a verified account on the forums in question (using the YouTuber's real name). So, yeah, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
  - jasonvorhe 11mo ago
    Most people rather trust some newspaper or magazine instead of investing 10 minutes into researching on their own only to then start sockpuppeting for the conclusions of the author who probably didn't do their due diligence in writing the piece in the first place.
    - neilv 11mo ago
      "Sockpuppeting" has connotations that don't apply here, and it's an important term for other pressing purposes, so we don't want to dilute it. Does "parroting" express your intent well enough?
      - jasonvorhe 11mo ago
        I was struggling with the term myself being a non-native speaker. I appreciate your suggestion, it's a much better fit. Thanks!
  - neilv 11mo ago
    Yeah, I think it's fair to say that Micay knows a million times more about this technical and application space, and the political and business dynamics around it, than most HNers. And I also believe that he's actually been personally targeted for harassment, from multiple directions, over the years. So he's learned and earned some... vigilance. And overall, I suspect that GrapheneOS is much better for the vigilant mindset. I donated money partly with this in mind. I don't know whether the project has a PR expert working with them already, but if not, that would be a nice pairing with the very smart and vigilant people on the team.
palata 11mo ago
I read about this when I first discovered GrapheneOS, and it looked like it. And it may be partially correct. But on the other hand, I have read a lot of "drama" between e.g. /e/OS and GrapheneOS, and more often than not, it looked like GrapheneOS was criticising actual limitations of /e/OS and /e/OS (a mix of the community and official comms) seemed to be the one being unfair. GrapheneOS generally is pretty direct at saying stuff like "their approach is strictly less secure" or "they are often worse than Stock Android", and I understand that this is not good publicity for Murena. But I am yet to see one of these claims to be wrong: all I can say is that the tone is very direct and could offend the /e/OS people, even if the claims are true. On the other hand, instead of just acknowledging and trying to explain why /e/OS may be a good choice (e.g. if you happen to own a phone that is not a Pixel and that is well supported by /e/OS), I have seen actually wrong claims from /e/OS against GrapheneOS (sometimes downright technically wrong about security/privacy). And while GrapheneOS is quite exemplary with their support (if your phone is supported, then it's best in class), I have run /e/OS on a couple of phones and I have seen by myself that some of the security updates were 3 years old while the Stock Android was actually up-to-date. So yeah... I get that it's a sensitive topic, but I feel like there is more a long history of people accusing GrapheneOS of accusing people, and I'm not anymore convinced that this is actually true.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- iamnothere 11mo ago
  This is likewise my experience. It’s true that Micay is prickly and unwilling to prioritize social grace over technical accuracy, but that’s kind of what I’d like to see for a project like this.
  - Grimblewald 11mo ago
    Honestly, this thread has done more to sell me on graphene than anything else. This makes me think its a fully serious and ridigid in its integrity endevour.
- preisschild 11mo ago

neilv 11mo ago

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."

protimewaster 11mo ago
I was going to say something along these lines. There was a post on the GrapheneOS forums a while back, from Micay, claiming that a well-known YouTuber who had backtracked on recommending GrapheneOS (because of Micay's behavior, according to the YouTuber) had probably actually backtracked because the YouTuber was financially involved with a competing project. My initial reaction to the post was, "Oh, I guess this is that paranoia I've heard about with Micay." My thought was reenforced when it was further claimed, in that thread, that the YouTuber was active in a forum well known for online bullying of people they don't like. The whole thing definitely sounded paranoid. In the thread, though, there was in fact linked paperwork where the YouTuber had registered the company in question, and also links to a verified account on the forums in question (using the YouTuber's real name). So, yeah, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
- jasonvorhe 11mo ago
  Most people rather trust some newspaper or magazine instead of investing 10 minutes into researching on their own only to then start sockpuppeting for the conclusions of the author who probably didn't do their due diligence in writing the piece in the first place.
  - neilv 11mo ago
    "Sockpuppeting" has connotations that don't apply here, and it's an important term for other pressing purposes, so we don't want to dilute it. Does "parroting" express your intent well enough?
    - jasonvorhe 11mo ago
      I was struggling with the term myself being a non-native speaker. I appreciate your suggestion, it's a much better fit. Thanks!
- neilv 11mo ago
  Yeah, I think it's fair to say that Micay knows a million times more about this technical and application space, and the political and business dynamics around it, than most HNers. And I also believe that he's actually been personally targeted for harassment, from multiple directions, over the years. So he's learned and earned some... vigilance. And overall, I suspect that GrapheneOS is much better for the vigilant mindset. I donated money partly with this in mind. I don't know whether the project has a PR expert working with them already, but if not, that would be a nice pairing with the very smart and vigilant people on the team.

palata 11mo ago

I read about this when I first discovered GrapheneOS, and it looked like it. And it may be partially correct. But on the other hand, I have read a lot of "drama" between e.g. /e/OS and GrapheneOS, and more often than not, it looked like GrapheneOS was criticising actual limitations of /e/OS and /e/OS (a mix of the community and official comms) seemed to be the one being unfair. GrapheneOS generally is pretty direct at saying stuff like "their approach is strictly less secure" or "they are often worse than Stock Android", and I understand that this is not good publicity for Murena. But I am yet to see one of these claims to be wrong: all I can say is that the tone is very direct and could offend the /e/OS people, even if the claims are true. On the other hand, instead of just acknowledging and trying to explain why /e/OS may be a good choice (e.g. if you happen to own a phone that is not a Pixel and that is well supported by /e/OS), I have seen actually wrong claims from /e/OS against GrapheneOS (sometimes downright technically wrong about security/privacy). And while GrapheneOS is quite exemplary with their support (if your phone is supported, then it's best in class), I have run /e/OS on a couple of phones and I have seen by myself that some of the security updates were 3 years old while the Stock Android was actually up-to-date. So yeah... I get that it's a sensitive topic, but I feel like there is more a long history of people accusing GrapheneOS of accusing people, and I'm not anymore convinced that this is actually true.

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
iamnothere 11mo ago
This is likewise my experience. It’s true that Micay is prickly and unwilling to prioritize social grace over technical accuracy, but that’s kind of what I’d like to see for a project like this.
- Grimblewald 11mo ago
  Honestly, this thread has done more to sell me on graphene than anything else. This makes me think its a fully serious and ridigid in its integrity endevour.
preisschild 11mo ago