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I understand the concerns and anger of GrapheneOS's leadership, but the hyper-escalation tactic doesn't do what they hope: First, it sends a message of inexper

by mmooss 1y ago

I understand the concerns and anger of GrapheneOS's leadership, but the hyper-escalation tactic doesn't do what they hope: First, it sends a message of inexperience in business, negotiation, and conflict resolution: 'I'm going to take my ball and leave' - it looks like an emotional overreaction without strategic thinking. These days you sometimes see powerful parties making similar threats - e.g., Uber threatening to leave certain markets. But those people have significant power and their tactic is really to demonstrate that in order to shift their negotiating position; usually they don't actually decamp, and GrapheneOS has relatively little power so that tactic doesn't apply. As importantly, it sends the message that GrapheneOS can be pushed around and manipulated: A slight hint of a threat and they flee. Others will take note, and many will think the same of other FOSS projects, large and small - they are easily intimidated and dismissed. Another reason people don't use these tactics is that they have other important interests besides the one under immediate threat. A requirement of anyone with significant investments that can't be easily abandoned - which is everyone doing anything of value - is to navigate in a way that upholds all those interests. You don't burn down the house to kill a rat. It can be hard and requires careful, deliberate thought and strategy. One unmentioned interest that might appeal to GrapheneOS's leadership is the freedoms of people in France to create FOSS, and to individual privacy and security.

elric 1y ago
Exiting France when they feel like the freedoms of their software and their contributors are in danger seems like a perfectly reasonable response. GrapheneOS is an open source project. They hand out great software for free. They have no obligations to do this. And they certainly have no obligation to try to "negotiate" with obviously hostile governments. They have nothing to gain from this. > You don't burn down the house to kill a rat. I don't see how this analogy applies here. France is the house.
- mmooss 1y ago
  This is the second time people responded to a post about GrapheneOS strategy with an argument about obligations. It's hard to even explain how vastly different those issues are. I didn't say anything about GrapheneOS's obligations; I talked about strategy and tactics to serve their goals. If you do want to talk about obligations - yes, we all have obligations to our communities, societies, etc., whether we like it or not, whether we deny it or not. GrapheneOS has obligations to the open source community, to freedom, to their users and developers, etc. Defining those obligations is very difficult and I won't try, but if none of us have those obligations then who does? There's nobody else coming to the rescue, there is no authority that will take care of it for you (like parents caring for irresponsible children) - it's just you and me.
  - delichon 1y ago
    > I talked about strategy and tactics to serve their goals. I am skeptical that there is any lesser step that they can take consistent with their goal of an uncompromised OS. Or that France would be satisfied with anything less than access. Security is not a side feature of GrapheneOS that they can compromise on, it's their core mission. It's like telling Frodo to see the sights in Mordor, but stay away from Mount Doom.
    - mmooss 1y ago
      This is part of the overreaction I described. Nothing the government of France has said publicly indicates any interest in GOS, beyond one quote from one prosecutor. Has there been any direct communication between someone from the government and GOS regarding this issue? I get that people are outraged, etc. but it's actually damaging the cause. GOS looks like an unreliable partner.
  - elric 1y ago
    > I talked about strategy and tactics to serve their goals Putting their project or contributors at risk does not serve their goals. You seem to be expecting a lot from a bunch of volunteer contributors.
mcv 1y ago
I don't know. It's making the news, and if GrapheneOS is the only one protesting this, what are iPhone and Android already complying with? Perhaps I should also switch to GrapheneOS. And moving your servers out of jurisdictions that threaten them is not hyper-escalation; that's just being responsible.
- mmooss 1y ago
  > It's making the news, and if GrapheneOS is the only one protesting this, what are iPhone and Android already complying with? Perhaps I should also switch to GrapheneOS. That is a (minor) upside, imho.
fooqux 1y ago
> it sends the message that GrapheneOS can be pushed around and manipulated: A slight hint of a threat and they flee. Somehow I doubt France thinks they "won". What they wanted was a back door into the OS. Not only did they not get that but they lost what little bargaining power they had when gOS left France. > it sends a message of inexperience in business, negotiation You don't negotiate with terrorists. Obviously France isn't a terror organization but the point is the same: you don't play their game. You play your own. Leaving the country is exactly that.
- eloisant 1y ago
  If you want my opinion GrapheneOS isn't on the radar of the French government at all, so they don't think they "won" or "lost". It's kind of a "I don't think about you at all" Mad Men Meme. It's just a few cops who said "I don't like that we can't crack it", and a journalist who asked the prosecutor who got Durov arrested and she said "well sure if they break the law we could sue them". The only party that is getting hurt about this whole thing is their French hosting company, OVH, who tried to calm down the situation and talk to explain him that they can still safely use OVH. https://mastodon.social/@_bapt_/115585566888497543 https://mastodon.social/@_bapt_/115585566888497543
  - mmooss 1y ago
    GrapheneOS also lost something. Whatever they are shutting down in France has some value, or it wouldn't have existed in the first place. Also they lose access to future opportunities in France.
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  > Somehow I doubt France thinks they "won". What they wanted was a back door into the OS. There is absolutely nothing pointing to France wanting a backdoor in GOS. The only thing we have is one prosecutor quoted in a far right journal saying she wouldn’t hesitate to charge them if they are linked to organised crimes and refuse to cooperate. When France wants a backdoor in an open source project, they do it like every modern country with an intelligence service, sneakily.
t3rra 1y ago
Ok, Johanna Brousse
Klonoar 1y ago
Exactly what ball do you think they’re taking and leaving?
palata 1y ago
I am genuinely not sure you understand what GrapheneOS is doing here. They were using French servers (OVH) for some infrastucture, and they are moving away from that because they are pissed at France. They don't make GrapheneOS unavailable to French users, they just change "cloud provider". There is no negotiation or conflict resolution there: they don't feel safe using a French provider, so they move to a non-French provider, period.
anvuong 1y ago
> self-advertised as uncompromising privacy focused OS > didn't even compromise even a bit (negotiation is already a compromise) against a country who is notorious for advocating for privacy-invasive policies in recent years > get lectured by yc high-horse rider on the obligation blah blah, even when by and large this move doesn't materially affect the end-users in any substantial way I used 4chan style because most of the times 4chan commenters have more sense than yc these days. Many people here do live in glass houses.
- echelon_musk 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
- mmooss 1y ago
  GP here. Why have three people now said I commented on obligations? I said nothing about it (and thought nothing about it).
mightysashiman 11mo ago
Couldn't agree more.

by mmooss 1y ago

elric 1y ago

Exiting France when they feel like the freedoms of their software and their contributors are in danger seems like a perfectly reasonable response. GrapheneOS is an open source project. They hand out great software for free. They have no obligations to do this. And they certainly have no obligation to try to "negotiate" with obviously hostile governments. They have nothing to gain from this. > You don't burn down the house to kill a rat. I don't see how this analogy applies here. France is the house.

mmooss 1y ago
This is the second time people responded to a post about GrapheneOS strategy with an argument about obligations. It's hard to even explain how vastly different those issues are. I didn't say anything about GrapheneOS's obligations; I talked about strategy and tactics to serve their goals. If you do want to talk about obligations - yes, we all have obligations to our communities, societies, etc., whether we like it or not, whether we deny it or not. GrapheneOS has obligations to the open source community, to freedom, to their users and developers, etc. Defining those obligations is very difficult and I won't try, but if none of us have those obligations then who does? There's nobody else coming to the rescue, there is no authority that will take care of it for you (like parents caring for irresponsible children) - it's just you and me.
- delichon 1y ago
  > I talked about strategy and tactics to serve their goals. I am skeptical that there is any lesser step that they can take consistent with their goal of an uncompromised OS. Or that France would be satisfied with anything less than access. Security is not a side feature of GrapheneOS that they can compromise on, it's their core mission. It's like telling Frodo to see the sights in Mordor, but stay away from Mount Doom.
  - mmooss 1y ago
    This is part of the overreaction I described. Nothing the government of France has said publicly indicates any interest in GOS, beyond one quote from one prosecutor. Has there been any direct communication between someone from the government and GOS regarding this issue? I get that people are outraged, etc. but it's actually damaging the cause. GOS looks like an unreliable partner.
- elric 1y ago
  > I talked about strategy and tactics to serve their goals Putting their project or contributors at risk does not serve their goals. You seem to be expecting a lot from a bunch of volunteer contributors.

mcv 1y ago

I don't know. It's making the news, and if GrapheneOS is the only one protesting this, what are iPhone and Android already complying with? Perhaps I should also switch to GrapheneOS. And moving your servers out of jurisdictions that threaten them is not hyper-escalation; that's just being responsible.

mmooss 1y ago
> It's making the news, and if GrapheneOS is the only one protesting this, what are iPhone and Android already complying with? Perhaps I should also switch to GrapheneOS. That is a (minor) upside, imho.

fooqux 1y ago

> it sends the message that GrapheneOS can be pushed around and manipulated: A slight hint of a threat and they flee. Somehow I doubt France thinks they "won". What they wanted was a back door into the OS. Not only did they not get that but they lost what little bargaining power they had when gOS left France. > it sends a message of inexperience in business, negotiation You don't negotiate with terrorists. Obviously France isn't a terror organization but the point is the same: you don't play their game. You play your own. Leaving the country is exactly that.

eloisant 1y ago
If you want my opinion GrapheneOS isn't on the radar of the French government at all, so they don't think they "won" or "lost". It's kind of a "I don't think about you at all" Mad Men Meme. It's just a few cops who said "I don't like that we can't crack it", and a journalist who asked the prosecutor who got Durov arrested and she said "well sure if they break the law we could sue them". The only party that is getting hurt about this whole thing is their French hosting company, OVH, who tried to calm down the situation and talk to explain him that they can still safely use OVH. https://mastodon.social/@_bapt_/115585566888497543 https://mastodon.social/@_bapt_/115585566888497543
- mmooss 1y ago
  GrapheneOS also lost something. Whatever they are shutting down in France has some value, or it wouldn't have existed in the first place. Also they lose access to future opportunities in France.
StopDisinfo910 1y ago
> Somehow I doubt France thinks they "won". What they wanted was a back door into the OS. There is absolutely nothing pointing to France wanting a backdoor in GOS. The only thing we have is one prosecutor quoted in a far right journal saying she wouldn’t hesitate to charge them if they are linked to organised crimes and refuse to cooperate. When France wants a backdoor in an open source project, they do it like every modern country with an intelligence service, sneakily.

t3rra 1y ago

Ok, Johanna Brousse

Klonoar 1y ago

Exactly what ball do you think they’re taking and leaving?

palata 1y ago

I am genuinely not sure you understand what GrapheneOS is doing here. They were using French servers (OVH) for some infrastucture, and they are moving away from that because they are pissed at France. They don't make GrapheneOS unavailable to French users, they just change "cloud provider". There is no negotiation or conflict resolution there: they don't feel safe using a French provider, so they move to a non-French provider, period.

anvuong 1y ago

> self-advertised as uncompromising privacy focused OS > didn't even compromise even a bit (negotiation is already a compromise) against a country who is notorious for advocating for privacy-invasive policies in recent years > get lectured by yc high-horse rider on the obligation blah blah, even when by and large this move doesn't materially affect the end-users in any substantial way I used 4chan style because most of the times 4chan commenters have more sense than yc these days. Many people here do live in glass houses.

echelon_musk 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
mmooss 1y ago
GP here. Why have three people now said I commented on obligations? I said nothing about it (and thought nothing about it).

mightysashiman 11mo ago

Couldn't agree more.