4 ms·

It's fairly telling of the state of the software industry that the exotic craft of 'fixing bugs' is apparently worth a LinkedIn-style self-promotional blog post

by troad 11mo ago

It's fairly telling of the state of the software industry that the exotic craft of 'fixing bugs' is apparently worth a LinkedIn-style self-promotional blog post. I don't mean to be too harsh on the author. They mean well. But I am saddened by the wider context, where a dev posts 'we fix bugs occasionally' and everyone is thrilled, because the idea of ensuring software continues to work well over time is now as alien to software dev as the idea of fair dealing is to used car salesmen.

pjmlp 11mo ago
That is why I stand on the side of better law for company responsibilities. We as industry have taught people that broken products is acceptable. In any other industry, unless people are from the start getting something they know is broken or low quality, flea market, 1 euro shop, or similar, they will return the product, ask for the money back, sue the company whatever.
- k4rli 11mo ago
  Imagining that the software will be shipped with hardware, that has no internet access and therefore cumbersome firmware upgrades, might be helpful. Avoiding shipping critical bugs is actually critical so bricking the hardware is undesirable. Example: (aftermarket) car headunit.
  - zeroCalories 11mo ago
    This type of testing is incredibly expensive and you'll have a startup run circles around you, assuming a startup could even exist when the YC investment needs to stretch 4x as far for the same product. The real solution is to have individual software developers be licensed and personally liable for the damage their work does. Write horrible bugs? A licencing board will review your work. Make a calculated risk that damages someone? Company sued by the user, developer sued by the company. This correctly balances incentives between software quality and productivity, and has the added benefit of culling low quality workers.
    - pjmlp 11mo ago
      The kind of relates to proper Engineering titles, unfortunely many countries don't have a legal system in place for those that decide to call themselves engineers without going through the exam, and related Order of the Engineer.
      - zeroCalories 11mo ago
        I don't think titles are for anything besides establishing blame. If a company hires someone in a local where the engineer can't be held responsible, the executives and major investors should be held liable. That way things will naturally sort themselves out. Need something unimportant done? Offshore. Have some critical system? Hire someone that can take responsibility.
        pjmlp 11mo ago
        As we say back home, responsability should never die alone.
        zeroCalories 11mo ago
        The easiest way to get away with murder is to split the blame such that no individual can be pointed to.
    - hiAndrewQuinn 11mo ago
      You don't need formal licensing for this to work, passthrough liability would do plenty. The real sign of success is whether an insurance industry sprouts up to protect software engineers, just like doctors.
- zelphirkalt 11mo ago
  There should be better regulation of course, but I want to point out, that the comparison with other industries doesn't quite work, because these days software is often given away at no financial cost. Often it costs ones data. But once that data is released into their data flows, you can never unrelease it. It has already been processed in LLM training or used somehow to target you with ads or whatever other purpose. So people can't do what they usually would do, when the product is broken.
  - nananana9 11mo ago
    "Free" software resulting in your data being sold is the software working as intended, it's orthogonal to the question of software robustness. Software isn't uniquely high stakes relative to other industries. Sure, if there's a data breach your data can't be un-leaked, but you can't be un-killed when a building collapses over your head or your car fails on the highway. The comparison with other industries works just fine - if we have high stakes, we should be shipping working products.
    - 1718627440 11mo ago
      "Free Software" means something, please consider using the terms gratis software or freeware/shareware instead.
remus 11mo ago
> But I am saddened by the wider context, where a dev posts 'we fix bugs occasionally' and everyone is thrilled, because the idea of ensuring software continues to work well over time is now as alien to software dev as the idea of fair dealing is to used car salesmen This is not the vibe I got from the post at all. I am sure they fix plenty of bugs throughout the rest of the year, but this will be balanced with other work on new features and the like and is going to be guided by wider businesses priorities. It seems the point in the exercise is focusing solely on bugs to the exclusion of everything else, and a lot of latitude to just pick whatever has been annoying you personally.
- ozim 11mo ago
  That’s what we have fix anything Friday for. The name is just an indication you can do it any day but idea is on Friday when you are at no point to start big thing, pick some small one you want to fix personally. Maybe a big in product maybe local dev setup.
alansaber 11mo ago
A company creating the conditions that allow for high quality engineering has always been the exception, not the norm

by troad 11mo ago

pjmlp 11mo ago

That is why I stand on the side of better law for company responsibilities. We as industry have taught people that broken products is acceptable. In any other industry, unless people are from the start getting something they know is broken or low quality, flea market, 1 euro shop, or similar, they will return the product, ask for the money back, sue the company whatever.

k4rli 11mo ago
Imagining that the software will be shipped with hardware, that has no internet access and therefore cumbersome firmware upgrades, might be helpful. Avoiding shipping critical bugs is actually critical so bricking the hardware is undesirable. Example: (aftermarket) car headunit.
- zeroCalories 11mo ago
  This type of testing is incredibly expensive and you'll have a startup run circles around you, assuming a startup could even exist when the YC investment needs to stretch 4x as far for the same product. The real solution is to have individual software developers be licensed and personally liable for the damage their work does. Write horrible bugs? A licencing board will review your work. Make a calculated risk that damages someone? Company sued by the user, developer sued by the company. This correctly balances incentives between software quality and productivity, and has the added benefit of culling low quality workers.
  - pjmlp 11mo ago
    The kind of relates to proper Engineering titles, unfortunely many countries don't have a legal system in place for those that decide to call themselves engineers without going through the exam, and related Order of the Engineer.
    - zeroCalories 11mo ago
      I don't think titles are for anything besides establishing blame. If a company hires someone in a local where the engineer can't be held responsible, the executives and major investors should be held liable. That way things will naturally sort themselves out. Need something unimportant done? Offshore. Have some critical system? Hire someone that can take responsibility.
      - pjmlp 11mo ago
        As we say back home, responsability should never die alone.
        zeroCalories 11mo ago
        The easiest way to get away with murder is to split the blame such that no individual can be pointed to.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 11mo ago
    You don't need formal licensing for this to work, passthrough liability would do plenty. The real sign of success is whether an insurance industry sprouts up to protect software engineers, just like doctors.
zelphirkalt 11mo ago
There should be better regulation of course, but I want to point out, that the comparison with other industries doesn't quite work, because these days software is often given away at no financial cost. Often it costs ones data. But once that data is released into their data flows, you can never unrelease it. It has already been processed in LLM training or used somehow to target you with ads or whatever other purpose. So people can't do what they usually would do, when the product is broken.
- nananana9 11mo ago
  "Free" software resulting in your data being sold is the software working as intended, it's orthogonal to the question of software robustness. Software isn't uniquely high stakes relative to other industries. Sure, if there's a data breach your data can't be un-leaked, but you can't be un-killed when a building collapses over your head or your car fails on the highway. The comparison with other industries works just fine - if we have high stakes, we should be shipping working products.
  - 1718627440 11mo ago
    "Free Software" means something, please consider using the terms gratis software or freeware/shareware instead.

remus 11mo ago

> But I am saddened by the wider context, where a dev posts 'we fix bugs occasionally' and everyone is thrilled, because the idea of ensuring software continues to work well over time is now as alien to software dev as the idea of fair dealing is to used car salesmen This is not the vibe I got from the post at all. I am sure they fix plenty of bugs throughout the rest of the year, but this will be balanced with other work on new features and the like and is going to be guided by wider businesses priorities. It seems the point in the exercise is focusing solely on bugs to the exclusion of everything else, and a lot of latitude to just pick whatever has been annoying you personally.

ozim 11mo ago
That’s what we have fix anything Friday for. The name is just an indication you can do it any day but idea is on Friday when you are at no point to start big thing, pick some small one you want to fix personally. Maybe a big in product maybe local dev setup.

alansaber 11mo ago

A company creating the conditions that allow for high quality engineering has always been the exception, not the norm