3 ms·

> I live in an area that had outdated payment systems on their bus network. They determined that the cost to upgrade the payment systems would be higher than th

> I live in an area that had outdated payment systems on their bus network. They determined that the cost to upgrade the payment systems would be higher than the revenue of fares, so they just made the buses free. I'm strongly in favour of free transit, but this boggles my mind. If your payment system is just a box where people drop in tickets/change, it's pretty low cost, never gets outdated, and pretty high compliance.

crazygringo 11mo ago
Selling tickets and collecting change from thousands of boxes is actually quite expensive in terms of manual labor and machines. The boxes themselves are expensive, as they have to be able to sort and count coins. And then the vending machines for the tickets. And it doesn't raise compliance at all. Why would it?
- Marsymars 11mo ago
  > The boxes themselves are expensive, as they have to be able to sort and count coins. The boxes in my city of ~1.7 million don't do this. They're just boxes. Presumably they have some big box at the bus HQ they dump them in to sort the change. > And it doesn't raise compliance at all. Why would it? I'm not saying they raise compliance over other systems, I'm saying that observationally, compliance is pretty good. When I take the bus, I see basically everyone either put something that looks like a fare/ticket in the box or show a transit pass to the driver.
  - crazygringo 11mo ago
    Who counts that the coins all add up to the fare then? Do you have to show the coins to the driver that they add up to the fare, before putting them in the box? I've only ever seen systems that count and display the amount of coins dropped in, until it adds up to a fare, and then there's an indication that it's sufficient and it beeps and then resets for the next person.
    - Marsymars 11mo ago
      The box is clear, the driver can see what people drop in. There’s nothing stopping you from putting half the fare amount in nickels in, but really, there’s nothing stopping you from putting nothing in and just taking a seat - bus drivers aren’t equipped to police fare evasion in either case. In practice, 80-90% of riders have monthly passes that are just pieces of paper that you wave in front of the driver as you get on. I’m not oblivious to the downsides of such a system, but there are real upsides around low cost, and no technology to ever go out of date.
j_w 11mo ago
Seriously? On hackernews you're acting like a "box where you drop in tickets" would be an adequate description for modern bus/transit fare? Obviously they need a system that integrates with the other transit options in the area (the trains and other localities bus providers), and accept electronic payment. What about transfers? Transfers between buses are supposed to be free, but how would you track that? There is also a reduced price from going from train -> bus. How would you track that? Obviously the system is significantly more complex than "drop some change in a bucket."
- Marsymars 11mo ago
  I'm not claiming it's modern, I'm just saying that it worked for decades, and it's not like it's a system that's started working less well now that more modern systems exist. This is literally how my city of ~1.7 million operates now, and it seems... fine? Like it's obviously worse than free transit or a snazzy FeLiCa-based system, but it clearly works to collect fares and move people around. > What about transfers? The bus driver tears off a paper slip with a time on it that's good for 90 minutes. > There is also a reduced price from going from train -> bus. How would you track that? You don't, all routes/transfers are the same cost. Again, I'm not saying this is the best system, but it's a false dichotomy to assume that "expensive new fare system" and "no fare system" are the only options. For some cost-value analysis, a basic/cheap fare system beats an expensive system even if it has fewer capabilities.

crazygringo 11mo ago

Selling tickets and collecting change from thousands of boxes is actually quite expensive in terms of manual labor and machines. The boxes themselves are expensive, as they have to be able to sort and count coins. And then the vending machines for the tickets. And it doesn't raise compliance at all. Why would it?

Marsymars 11mo ago
> The boxes themselves are expensive, as they have to be able to sort and count coins. The boxes in my city of ~1.7 million don't do this. They're just boxes. Presumably they have some big box at the bus HQ they dump them in to sort the change. > And it doesn't raise compliance at all. Why would it? I'm not saying they raise compliance over other systems, I'm saying that observationally, compliance is pretty good. When I take the bus, I see basically everyone either put something that looks like a fare/ticket in the box or show a transit pass to the driver.
- crazygringo 11mo ago
  Who counts that the coins all add up to the fare then? Do you have to show the coins to the driver that they add up to the fare, before putting them in the box? I've only ever seen systems that count and display the amount of coins dropped in, until it adds up to a fare, and then there's an indication that it's sufficient and it beeps and then resets for the next person.
  - Marsymars 11mo ago
    The box is clear, the driver can see what people drop in. There’s nothing stopping you from putting half the fare amount in nickels in, but really, there’s nothing stopping you from putting nothing in and just taking a seat - bus drivers aren’t equipped to police fare evasion in either case. In practice, 80-90% of riders have monthly passes that are just pieces of paper that you wave in front of the driver as you get on. I’m not oblivious to the downsides of such a system, but there are real upsides around low cost, and no technology to ever go out of date.

j_w 11mo ago

Seriously? On hackernews you're acting like a "box where you drop in tickets" would be an adequate description for modern bus/transit fare? Obviously they need a system that integrates with the other transit options in the area (the trains and other localities bus providers), and accept electronic payment. What about transfers? Transfers between buses are supposed to be free, but how would you track that? There is also a reduced price from going from train -> bus. How would you track that? Obviously the system is significantly more complex than "drop some change in a bucket."

Marsymars 11mo ago
I'm not claiming it's modern, I'm just saying that it worked for decades, and it's not like it's a system that's started working less well now that more modern systems exist. This is literally how my city of ~1.7 million operates now, and it seems... fine? Like it's obviously worse than free transit or a snazzy FeLiCa-based system, but it clearly works to collect fares and move people around. > What about transfers? The bus driver tears off a paper slip with a time on it that's good for 90 minutes. > There is also a reduced price from going from train -> bus. How would you track that? You don't, all routes/transfers are the same cost. Again, I'm not saying this is the best system, but it's a false dichotomy to assume that "expensive new fare system" and "no fare system" are the only options. For some cost-value analysis, a basic/cheap fare system beats an expensive system even if it has fewer capabilities.