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So Hacker News should lose section 230 protection? Because the content served here isn't served in chronological order. The front page takes votes into account

by Manuel_D 11mo ago

So Hacker News should lose section 230 protection? Because the content served here isn't served in chronological order. The front page takes votes into account and displays hotter posts higher in the feed.

sleight42 11mo ago
And there's also moderator control? Yup. Accountable.
- Manuel_D 11mo ago
  So to be clear, anything other than a 4chan-like unmoderated chronological feed results in loss of section 230 protection? Heck, even 4chan wouldn't qualify, because despite considerably looser content rules they still actually do perform moderation.
  - sokoloff 11mo ago
    Most sites that accept user-generated-content are forced to do some level of moderation, lest they become a cesspit of one form or another (CSAM, threats, hate speech, exposing porn to underage users, stolen credit card sales, etc...)
slg 11mo ago
Technically sorting by timestamp is an "algorithm" too, so I was just speaking informally rather than drafting the exact language of a piece of legislation. I would define the categories as something like algorithms determined by direct proactive user decisions (following, upvoting, etc) versus algorithms that are determined by other factors (views, watch time, behavior by similar users, etc). Basically it should always be clear why you're being served what you're being served, either because the user chose to see it or because everyone is seeing it. No more nebulous black box algorithms that give every user an experience individually designed to keep them on the platform. This will still impact HN because of stuff like the flame war downranker they use here. However, that doesn't automatically mean HN loses Section 230 protection. HN could respond by simplifying its ranking algorithm to maintain 230 protections.
- Manuel_D 11mo ago
  So a simple "most viewed in last month" page would trigger a loss of protection? Because that ranking is determined by number of views, rather than a proactive user decision like upvoting.
  - slg 11mo ago
    >So a simple "most viewed in last month" page would trigger a loss of protection? The key word there is "page". I have no problem with news.ycombinator.com/active, but that is a page that a user must proactively seek out. It's not the default or even possible to make it the default. Every time a user visits it, it is because they decided to visit it. The page is also the same for everyone who visits it.
    - Manuel_D 11mo ago
      To be clear, even the front page of Hacker News is not just a simple question of upvotes. Views, comments, time since posting, political content down ranking, etc. all at a factor in the ordering of posts.
- rafabulsing 11mo ago
  I think the best way to put it is, users with the same user picked settings should see the same things, in the same order. That's a given on HackerNews, as there's only one frontpage. On Reddit that would be, users subscribed to the same subreddits would always see the same things on their frontpages. Same as users on YouTube subscribed to the same channels, users on Facebook who liked the same pages, and so on. The real problem starts when the algorithm takes into account implicit user actions. E.g., two users are subscribed to the same channels, and both click on the same video. User A watches the whole video, user B leaves halfway through. If the algorithm takes that into account, now user A will see different suggestions than user B. That's what gets the ball rolling into hyper specialized endless feeds which tend to push you into extremes, as small signals will end up being amplified without the user ever taking an explicit action other than clicking or not suggestions in the feed. As long as every signal the algorithm takes into account is either a global state (user votes, total watch time, etc), or something the user explicitly and proactively has stated is their preference, I think that would be enough to curb most of the problems with algorithmic feeds. Users could still manually configure feeds that provide hyper personalized, hyper specific, and hyper addictive content. But I bet the vast majority of users would never go beyond picking 1 specific sport, 2 personal hobbies and 3 genres of music they're interested in and calling it a day. Really, most would probably never even go that far. That's the reason platforms all converged on using those implicit signals, after all: they work much better than the user's explicit signals (if your ultimate goal is maximizing user retention/addiction, and you don't care at all about the collateral damage resulting from that).
ryandrake 11mo ago
This is an unpopular opinion here, but I think in general the whole "immunity for third-party content" thing in 230 was a big mistake overall. If you're a web site that exercises editorial control over the content you publish (such as moderating, manually curating, algorithmically curating, demoting or promoting individual contents, and so on), then you have already shown that you are the ones controlling the content that gets published, not end users. So you should take responsibility for what you publish. You shouldn't be able to hide behind "But it was a third party end user who gave it to me!" You've shown (by your moderation practices) that you are the final say in what gets posted, not your users. So you should stand behind the content that you are specifically allowing. If a web site makes a good faith effort to moderate things away that could get them in trouble, then they shouldn't get in trouble. And if they have a policy of not moderating or curating, then they should be treated like a dumb pipe, like an ISP. They shouldn't be able to have their cake (exercise editorial control) and eat it too (enjoy liability protection over what they publish).
- bostik 11mo ago
  The thing that's missing is the difference between a unsolicited external content (ie. pay-for-play stuff) and directly user-supplied content. If you're doing editorial decisions, you should be treated like a syndicator. Yep, that means vetting the ads you show, paid propaganda that you accept to publish, and generally having legal and financial liability for the outcomes. User-supplied content needs moderation too, but with them you have to apply different standards. Prefiltering what someone else can post on your platform makes you a censor. You have to do some to prevent your system from becoming a Nazi bar or an abuse demo reel, but beyond that the users themselves should be allowed to say what they want to see and in what order of preference. Section 230 needs to protect the latter. The thing I would have liked to see long time ago is for the platforms / syndicators to have obligation to notify their users who have been subjected to any kind of influence operations. Whether that's political pestering, black propaganda or even out-and-out "classic" advertising campaign, should make no difference.
- Manuel_D 11mo ago
  Moderating and ranking content is distinct from editorial control. Editorial control refers to editing the actual contents of posts. Sites that exercise editorial control are liable for their edits. For instance if a user posts "Joe Smith is not a criminal" and the website operators delete the word "not", then the company can be held liable for defaming Joe Smith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230#Application_and_limits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230#Application_and_li...
erentz 11mo ago
Can’t you just limit scope for section 230 by revenue or users? E.g. it only applies to companies with revenue <$10m. Or services with <10,000 active users. This allows blogs and small forums to continue as is, but once you’re making meaningful money or have a meaningful user base you become responsible for what you’re publishing.
armada651 11mo ago
I think the biggest problem is when we're all served a uniquely personalized feed. Everyone on Hacker News gets the same front page, but on Facebook users get one specifically tailored to them. If Hacker News filled their front page with hate speech and self-harm tutorials there would be public outcry. But Facebook can serve that to people on their timeline and no one bats an eye, because Facebook can algorithmically serve that content only to people who engage with it.

sleight42 11mo ago

And there's also moderator control? Yup. Accountable.

Manuel_D 11mo ago
So to be clear, anything other than a 4chan-like unmoderated chronological feed results in loss of section 230 protection? Heck, even 4chan wouldn't qualify, because despite considerably looser content rules they still actually do perform moderation.
- sokoloff 11mo ago
  Most sites that accept user-generated-content are forced to do some level of moderation, lest they become a cesspit of one form or another (CSAM, threats, hate speech, exposing porn to underage users, stolen credit card sales, etc...)

slg 11mo ago

Technically sorting by timestamp is an "algorithm" too, so I was just speaking informally rather than drafting the exact language of a piece of legislation. I would define the categories as something like algorithms determined by direct proactive user decisions (following, upvoting, etc) versus algorithms that are determined by other factors (views, watch time, behavior by similar users, etc). Basically it should always be clear why you're being served what you're being served, either because the user chose to see it or because everyone is seeing it. No more nebulous black box algorithms that give every user an experience individually designed to keep them on the platform. This will still impact HN because of stuff like the flame war downranker they use here. However, that doesn't automatically mean HN loses Section 230 protection. HN could respond by simplifying its ranking algorithm to maintain 230 protections.

Manuel_D 11mo ago
So a simple "most viewed in last month" page would trigger a loss of protection? Because that ranking is determined by number of views, rather than a proactive user decision like upvoting.
- slg 11mo ago
  >So a simple "most viewed in last month" page would trigger a loss of protection? The key word there is "page". I have no problem with news.ycombinator.com/active, but that is a page that a user must proactively seek out. It's not the default or even possible to make it the default. Every time a user visits it, it is because they decided to visit it. The page is also the same for everyone who visits it.
  - Manuel_D 11mo ago
    To be clear, even the front page of Hacker News is not just a simple question of upvotes. Views, comments, time since posting, political content down ranking, etc. all at a factor in the ordering of posts.
rafabulsing 11mo ago
I think the best way to put it is, users with the same user picked settings should see the same things, in the same order. That's a given on HackerNews, as there's only one frontpage. On Reddit that would be, users subscribed to the same subreddits would always see the same things on their frontpages. Same as users on YouTube subscribed to the same channels, users on Facebook who liked the same pages, and so on. The real problem starts when the algorithm takes into account implicit user actions. E.g., two users are subscribed to the same channels, and both click on the same video. User A watches the whole video, user B leaves halfway through. If the algorithm takes that into account, now user A will see different suggestions than user B. That's what gets the ball rolling into hyper specialized endless feeds which tend to push you into extremes, as small signals will end up being amplified without the user ever taking an explicit action other than clicking or not suggestions in the feed. As long as every signal the algorithm takes into account is either a global state (user votes, total watch time, etc), or something the user explicitly and proactively has stated is their preference, I think that would be enough to curb most of the problems with algorithmic feeds. Users could still manually configure feeds that provide hyper personalized, hyper specific, and hyper addictive content. But I bet the vast majority of users would never go beyond picking 1 specific sport, 2 personal hobbies and 3 genres of music they're interested in and calling it a day. Really, most would probably never even go that far. That's the reason platforms all converged on using those implicit signals, after all: they work much better than the user's explicit signals (if your ultimate goal is maximizing user retention/addiction, and you don't care at all about the collateral damage resulting from that).

ryandrake 11mo ago

This is an unpopular opinion here, but I think in general the whole "immunity for third-party content" thing in 230 was a big mistake overall. If you're a web site that exercises editorial control over the content you publish (such as moderating, manually curating, algorithmically curating, demoting or promoting individual contents, and so on), then you have already shown that you are the ones controlling the content that gets published, not end users. So you should take responsibility for what you publish. You shouldn't be able to hide behind "But it was a third party end user who gave it to me!" You've shown (by your moderation practices) that you are the final say in what gets posted, not your users. So you should stand behind the content that you are specifically allowing. If a web site makes a good faith effort to moderate things away that could get them in trouble, then they shouldn't get in trouble. And if they have a policy of not moderating or curating, then they should be treated like a dumb pipe, like an ISP. They shouldn't be able to have their cake (exercise editorial control) and eat it too (enjoy liability protection over what they publish).

bostik 11mo ago
The thing that's missing is the difference between a unsolicited external content (ie. pay-for-play stuff) and directly user-supplied content. If you're doing editorial decisions, you should be treated like a syndicator. Yep, that means vetting the ads you show, paid propaganda that you accept to publish, and generally having legal and financial liability for the outcomes. User-supplied content needs moderation too, but with them you have to apply different standards. Prefiltering what someone else can post on your platform makes you a censor. You have to do some to prevent your system from becoming a Nazi bar or an abuse demo reel, but beyond that the users themselves should be allowed to say what they want to see and in what order of preference. Section 230 needs to protect the latter. The thing I would have liked to see long time ago is for the platforms / syndicators to have obligation to notify their users who have been subjected to any kind of influence operations. Whether that's political pestering, black propaganda or even out-and-out "classic" advertising campaign, should make no difference.
Manuel_D 11mo ago
Moderating and ranking content is distinct from editorial control. Editorial control refers to editing the actual contents of posts. Sites that exercise editorial control are liable for their edits. For instance if a user posts "Joe Smith is not a criminal" and the website operators delete the word "not", then the company can be held liable for defaming Joe Smith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230#Application_and_limits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230#Application_and_li...

erentz 11mo ago

Can’t you just limit scope for section 230 by revenue or users? E.g. it only applies to companies with revenue <$10m. Or services with <10,000 active users. This allows blogs and small forums to continue as is, but once you’re making meaningful money or have a meaningful user base you become responsible for what you’re publishing.

armada651 11mo ago

I think the biggest problem is when we're all served a uniquely personalized feed. Everyone on Hacker News gets the same front page, but on Facebook users get one specifically tailored to them. If Hacker News filled their front page with hate speech and self-harm tutorials there would be public outcry. But Facebook can serve that to people on their timeline and no one bats an eye, because Facebook can algorithmically serve that content only to people who engage with it.