4 ms·

I always bring it up in these threads, but as a dual british/swedish citizen I find it incredulous. Sweden has a national database and a national ID card syste

by dijit 11mo ago

I always bring it up in these threads, but as a dual british/swedish citizen I find it incredulous. Sweden has a national database and a national ID card system, and it makes my life in Sweden a lot better. That said, I don’t trust the UK government, I haven’t trusted any UK government in my adult lifetime and I am coming into middle-age. Solve that problem first, maybe?

nialv7 11mo ago
I am indifferent to having/not having a government ID. But I just find it incredibly stupid for the government to introduce it now given the current political atmosphere.
- dijit 11mo ago
  Have you got a license for that opinion? (I agree with you)
- stevehawk 11mo ago
  but now is exactly the time to do it because so many people are mad about immigration and you can blame it on immgrants instead of a thirsty desire to surveil.
varispeed 11mo ago
Issue is that national ID in the drawer or your pocket, doesn't send your location to government. Digital ID on the phone is just one update away from doing that. Digital ID becomes a fancy name for ankle tag.
- dijit 11mo ago
  The digital authentication system is called BankID, but its effectively tied to the government ID due to the same identifier being used (personnummer). Again, the issue is mostly trust. PS: oh dear, oh no, I appear to have offended someone and they’re flagging me, oh dear heavens I must be incorrect then! Woe is me. /s
  - varispeed 11mo ago
    “Trust” has nothing to do with it. There’s no genuine public need for a government-run digital ID system in the first place. The only people who need it are the corporations who lobbied for it, because it creates new revenue streams by turning identity into a product. Once the whole country is routed through one digital choke-point, everything else follows automatically: behavioural data, movement data, payments data, cross-service profiling. And once that system exists, it only ever moves in one direction. A paper ID sits in your pocket and minds its own business. A digital ID is one update away from becoming a tracking token. Dress it up however you like, but it’s just an ankle tag with better UX. And the UK track record on data leaks, “accidental” sharing, and mission creep is spectacularly awful. The idea that this won’t be exploited is a fairy tale. If it goes ahead in the flavour BlackRock and WEF types dream about, expect the usual: - services quietly tied to compliance thresholds - financial scoring bleeding into civic rights - automated sanctions and “risk flags” - real-time behavioural profiles sold as “fraud prevention” - and every data breach blamed on a junior contractor who “misconfigured a bucket”. None of this empowers the public. It just hands more leverage to the same institutions already shaping policy from behind the curtain.
    - dijit 11mo ago
      As a person who lives across a society where this exists, and has lived in multiple societies without it. Frankly, you’re wrong. There’s a benefit to the public. Let me frame what I mean with a parable (and, its relevant to my point even if it seems totally unrelated, and I’m typing from my phone, so forgive the briefness). When I dated my (now) ex-girlfriend; she used to make mention of my teeth as a negative thing, that I’d be more handsome it they weren’t crooked etc. One christmas she purchased for me, an electric toothbrush. A fancy one, she clearly thought a lot about which one to get: but to her surprise I was unhappy. An electric toothbrush has (mostly) benefits, this one didn’t even need new heads all the time, dentists almost universally agree that an electric toothbrush is a good option. Yet I was unhappy. Why? because the gift was mired in the backdrop of previous conversations and self conscious issues. A few years later, and I received an electric toothbrush as a gift again. However, this time the person giving it had never said anything to make me self concious, even better: they had previously planted an electric toothbrush head at their apartment, so I could use their electric toothbrush body when I visited (this was one of the earliest moments in the relationship and was a not-so-subtle invitation to come back). Now; it’s the same gift. Same benefits. Why was I happy now when I wasn’t before? The context made a huge difference. On the one hand the first gift felt like a way of controlling me and a subtle way of putting me down (or, emotionally it felt that way- regardless of if it was well intentioned or not). The other time it was gifted; it was enhancing what we already had. Context is important, and thats why I say: this shit is pretty good, but I totally buy why you don’t think so. I don’t trust the UK Government is doing it for our sake either.
michaelt 11mo ago
> Sweden has a national database and a national ID card system, and it makes my life in Sweden a lot better. Can you be a bit more specific about how?
- dijit 11mo ago
  The amount of paperwork in my life is effectively zero. Even filing taxes can be sending an SMS saying I agree to what they’ve said. Signing up for a new bank? No problem, the same ID is used for both banks so my authentication of one is good enough to action the transfer. Benefits (Rot/Rut- for home improvements) are handled without me doing anything. All my receipts/payslips etc; go to a digital mailbox and I can download them and print them no problem. Its a lot like how the NHS works w.r.t. prescriptions: except for quite literally everything.
  - hexbin010 11mo ago
    Of all the issues in my life, paperwork has never been one of them. Yes, at certain times – couple hours a year (0.02% of a year) – it's a bit of a faff dealing with paperwork. House prices, cost of living, lack of healthcare, my family, my health, the economy, transport, the job market etc consume 99.9% of my day-to-day general concerns. Did people prior to the 2000s have mental breakdowns over paperwork?? How many times do you open a bank account a year??
    - dijit 11mo ago
      1) Your argument is: "improving anything that doesn't effect me very much is not worth it." I mean, there are larger things to fix, but this one is probably larger than you think, even if it's not helping you very much, it'll help crack down on illegal workers (hey, we don't like that, right?) and it'll make the social systems have much less friction. 2) Notice that outside of Stockholm, Swedish house prices are not pegged to infinite like the UK is? I'm not saying that it's because of a central ID system, but you seem to imply that it precludes reasonable house prices... which is weird. 3) The economy is better when it's more efficient. Plenty of people argue inefficiency for the sake of jobs (people pushing paperwork have jobs! cushy government jobs! without them having jobs there'll be more unemployed people! -- I see this a lot more with Americans, and I find it to be an uncompelling argument usually). -- That is to say, I'm actually on your side, I don't trust the UK government, I'm merely offering a contra-point because in other EU countries these things are actually great and simplify a lot of things that you only really notice when you live with it - thus a lot of the hypotheticals fall on deaf ears to me. It's like watching people argue that having legs won't improve your life because someone can take away your shoes.
bostik 11mo ago
As a Finnish citizen living in the UK, I also come from a culture where a national ID system exists. I would not trust the UK to do theirs sensibly. Even the invoked name "Digital ID" makes it very clear that this system would rely on central databases. Only. In a country where the upcoming political parties are actively proposing stripping foreigners from their immigration status, it's pretty clear that all the parties learned at least one common message from the Windrush scandal: destroying documentation of immigrants was not the problem - leaving behind evidence of such action having happened was. EDIT: the Finnish system at least sets up _some_ guard rails around how the data is used, and mandates a physical document that one can use as a proof when (not if) the central DB is down or going through Windrush 2.0 purge.
sys_64738 11mo ago
Do you trust the Swedish government? I'd assume that's the big difference. British politicians are liars and totally deceitful, out to line their own pockets with government function. See all the issues with PPP during COVID going to Tory MPs who had their hands in the tills of companies getting the contracts. The Digital ID will just be another corruption scandal that is a total disaster but make lots of MPs richer.

by dijit 11mo ago

nialv7 11mo ago

I am indifferent to having/not having a government ID. But I just find it incredibly stupid for the government to introduce it now given the current political atmosphere.

dijit 11mo ago
Have you got a license for that opinion? (I agree with you)
stevehawk 11mo ago
but now is exactly the time to do it because so many people are mad about immigration and you can blame it on immgrants instead of a thirsty desire to surveil.

varispeed 11mo ago

Issue is that national ID in the drawer or your pocket, doesn't send your location to government. Digital ID on the phone is just one update away from doing that. Digital ID becomes a fancy name for ankle tag.

dijit 11mo ago
The digital authentication system is called BankID, but its effectively tied to the government ID due to the same identifier being used (personnummer). Again, the issue is mostly trust. PS: oh dear, oh no, I appear to have offended someone and they’re flagging me, oh dear heavens I must be incorrect then! Woe is me. /s
- varispeed 11mo ago
  “Trust” has nothing to do with it. There’s no genuine public need for a government-run digital ID system in the first place. The only people who need it are the corporations who lobbied for it, because it creates new revenue streams by turning identity into a product. Once the whole country is routed through one digital choke-point, everything else follows automatically: behavioural data, movement data, payments data, cross-service profiling. And once that system exists, it only ever moves in one direction. A paper ID sits in your pocket and minds its own business. A digital ID is one update away from becoming a tracking token. Dress it up however you like, but it’s just an ankle tag with better UX. And the UK track record on data leaks, “accidental” sharing, and mission creep is spectacularly awful. The idea that this won’t be exploited is a fairy tale. If it goes ahead in the flavour BlackRock and WEF types dream about, expect the usual: - services quietly tied to compliance thresholds - financial scoring bleeding into civic rights - automated sanctions and “risk flags” - real-time behavioural profiles sold as “fraud prevention” - and every data breach blamed on a junior contractor who “misconfigured a bucket”. None of this empowers the public. It just hands more leverage to the same institutions already shaping policy from behind the curtain.
  - dijit 11mo ago
    As a person who lives across a society where this exists, and has lived in multiple societies without it. Frankly, you’re wrong. There’s a benefit to the public. Let me frame what I mean with a parable (and, its relevant to my point even if it seems totally unrelated, and I’m typing from my phone, so forgive the briefness). When I dated my (now) ex-girlfriend; she used to make mention of my teeth as a negative thing, that I’d be more handsome it they weren’t crooked etc. One christmas she purchased for me, an electric toothbrush. A fancy one, she clearly thought a lot about which one to get: but to her surprise I was unhappy. An electric toothbrush has (mostly) benefits, this one didn’t even need new heads all the time, dentists almost universally agree that an electric toothbrush is a good option. Yet I was unhappy. Why? because the gift was mired in the backdrop of previous conversations and self conscious issues. A few years later, and I received an electric toothbrush as a gift again. However, this time the person giving it had never said anything to make me self concious, even better: they had previously planted an electric toothbrush head at their apartment, so I could use their electric toothbrush body when I visited (this was one of the earliest moments in the relationship and was a not-so-subtle invitation to come back). Now; it’s the same gift. Same benefits. Why was I happy now when I wasn’t before? The context made a huge difference. On the one hand the first gift felt like a way of controlling me and a subtle way of putting me down (or, emotionally it felt that way- regardless of if it was well intentioned or not). The other time it was gifted; it was enhancing what we already had. Context is important, and thats why I say: this shit is pretty good, but I totally buy why you don’t think so. I don’t trust the UK Government is doing it for our sake either.

michaelt 11mo ago

> Sweden has a national database and a national ID card system, and it makes my life in Sweden a lot better. Can you be a bit more specific about how?

dijit 11mo ago
The amount of paperwork in my life is effectively zero. Even filing taxes can be sending an SMS saying I agree to what they’ve said. Signing up for a new bank? No problem, the same ID is used for both banks so my authentication of one is good enough to action the transfer. Benefits (Rot/Rut- for home improvements) are handled without me doing anything. All my receipts/payslips etc; go to a digital mailbox and I can download them and print them no problem. Its a lot like how the NHS works w.r.t. prescriptions: except for quite literally everything.
- hexbin010 11mo ago
  Of all the issues in my life, paperwork has never been one of them. Yes, at certain times – couple hours a year (0.02% of a year) – it's a bit of a faff dealing with paperwork. House prices, cost of living, lack of healthcare, my family, my health, the economy, transport, the job market etc consume 99.9% of my day-to-day general concerns. Did people prior to the 2000s have mental breakdowns over paperwork?? How many times do you open a bank account a year??
  - dijit 11mo ago
    1) Your argument is: "improving anything that doesn't effect me very much is not worth it." I mean, there are larger things to fix, but this one is probably larger than you think, even if it's not helping you very much, it'll help crack down on illegal workers (hey, we don't like that, right?) and it'll make the social systems have much less friction. 2) Notice that outside of Stockholm, Swedish house prices are not pegged to infinite like the UK is? I'm not saying that it's because of a central ID system, but you seem to imply that it precludes reasonable house prices... which is weird. 3) The economy is better when it's more efficient. Plenty of people argue inefficiency for the sake of jobs (people pushing paperwork have jobs! cushy government jobs! without them having jobs there'll be more unemployed people! -- I see this a lot more with Americans, and I find it to be an uncompelling argument usually). -- That is to say, I'm actually on your side, I don't trust the UK government, I'm merely offering a contra-point because in other EU countries these things are actually great and simplify a lot of things that you only really notice when you live with it - thus a lot of the hypotheticals fall on deaf ears to me. It's like watching people argue that having legs won't improve your life because someone can take away your shoes.

bostik 11mo ago

As a Finnish citizen living in the UK, I also come from a culture where a national ID system exists. I would not trust the UK to do theirs sensibly. Even the invoked name "Digital ID" makes it very clear that this system would rely on central databases. Only. In a country where the upcoming political parties are actively proposing stripping foreigners from their immigration status, it's pretty clear that all the parties learned at least one common message from the Windrush scandal: destroying documentation of immigrants was not the problem - leaving behind evidence of such action having happened was. EDIT: the Finnish system at least sets up _some_ guard rails around how the data is used, and mandates a physical document that one can use as a proof when (not if) the central DB is down or going through Windrush 2.0 purge.

sys_64738 11mo ago

Do you trust the Swedish government? I'd assume that's the big difference. British politicians are liars and totally deceitful, out to line their own pockets with government function. See all the issues with PPP during COVID going to Tory MPs who had their hands in the tills of companies getting the contracts. The Digital ID will just be another corruption scandal that is a total disaster but make lots of MPs richer.