4 ms·

Lisp is its own meta-language, and Racket is even more meta. It's a language construction kit, essentially.

by nine_k 1y ago

ModernMech 1y ago
I've often heard this, but I don't really know of many people in the PL dev community who build their language in Racket. Also, I've taught a PL course and I tried to use Racket as a component, but students mostly just struggled with the LISP-y ness of it all, as they were primarily used to Java and Python. In all, I'm not really sure who Racket is for.
- nine_k 1y ago
  I suppose, Racket is for CS grads / post-grads / researchers / professors. That is, not for those who just learn CS basics, but for those learnèd enough. Students might use some simplified or customized languages produced with Racket. The syntax needs not be lispy; #lang algol60 is built in :)
  - Jeff_Brown 1y ago
    You list only academic positions. Has no popular software been written in it yet?
    - shakna 1y ago
      Arc was ported to Common Lisp last year, but before that was Racket. And HN is written in Arc. So does the website you're on count as popular software?
      - preommr 1y ago
        Six degrees of "Kevin..", I mean, Racket
    - djtango 1y ago
      Naughty Dog used Racket and their own in house lisp (prior to that) to write their games. Could be mistaken but IIRC Jak and Daxter was the first console game to have a fully streaming world and they achieved it using a technique inspired by their hot reloading dev setups
  - petre 1y ago
    Actually it's great for learning CS basics. https://zoo.cs.yale.edu/classes/cs201/Spring_2021/lectures/Racket.html https://zoo.cs.yale.edu/classes/cs201/Spring_2021/lectures/R...
- maplant 1y ago
  Idris is bootstrapped on scheme if I recall correctly
  - attila-lendvai 1y ago
    it's bootstrapped off of GHC. it was only using ChezScheme as an optimizing compiler backend. (i created a PR to refactor their build system to reify the bootstrap process all the way down from GHC. it basically generalized the normal build workflow of Idris2 to be able to animate the entire bootstrap chain from GHC. sadly, it was pretty much ignored, and later abandoned: https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris2/pull/1990 https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris2/pull/1990)
    - soegaard 1y ago
      From the Idris 2 documentation: >> Can Idris 2 compile itself? > Yes, Idris 2 is implemented in Idris 2. By default, it targets Chez Scheme, > so you can bootstrap from the generated Scheme code, as described in Section > Getting Started. Also, check this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9YAOaBWuIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9YAOaBWuIk
      - attila-lendvai 1y ago
        well, i wouldn't call that beeing bootstrapped. in this case the generated scheme code is just a strange form of executable file that happens to need ChezScheme to be executed. i.e. an ELF64 idris2 linux binary vs. an idris2.scm file that needs ChezScheme to come alive. as for Idris2 implemented in Idris2: well, yes, that's true for the current version of Idris2. but the first version of Idris2 was written in Idris1. and the first version of Idris1 was written in Haskell.
- igouy 1y ago
  fyi https://blog.cloudflare.com/topaz-policy-engine-design/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/topaz-policy-engine-design/
  - parlortricks 1y ago
    That was a great read from Cloudflare.
- yuppiemephisto 1y ago
  These days, I prefer Lean 4. Its macro system is inspired by racket and it has powerful types

Lisp is its own meta-language, and Racket is even more meta. It's a language construction kit, essentially.

by nine_k 1y ago

Lisp is its own meta-language, and Racket is even more meta. It's a language construction kit, essentially.

I've often heard this, but I don't really know of many people in the PL dev community who build their language in Racket. Also, I've taught a PL course and I tried to use Racket as a component, but students mostly just struggled with the LISP-y ness of it all, as they were primarily used to Java and Python. In all, I'm not really sure who Racket is for.

nine_k 1y ago
I suppose, Racket is for CS grads / post-grads / researchers / professors. That is, not for those who just learn CS basics, but for those learnèd enough. Students might use some simplified or customized languages produced with Racket. The syntax needs not be lispy; #lang algol60 is built in :)
- Jeff_Brown 1y ago
  You list only academic positions. Has no popular software been written in it yet?
  - shakna 1y ago
    Arc was ported to Common Lisp last year, but before that was Racket. And HN is written in Arc. So does the website you're on count as popular software?
    - preommr 1y ago
      Six degrees of "Kevin..", I mean, Racket
  - djtango 1y ago
    Naughty Dog used Racket and their own in house lisp (prior to that) to write their games. Could be mistaken but IIRC Jak and Daxter was the first console game to have a fully streaming world and they achieved it using a technique inspired by their hot reloading dev setups
- petre 1y ago
  Actually it's great for learning CS basics. https://zoo.cs.yale.edu/classes/cs201/Spring_2021/lectures/Racket.html https://zoo.cs.yale.edu/classes/cs201/Spring_2021/lectures/R...
maplant 1y ago
Idris is bootstrapped on scheme if I recall correctly
- attila-lendvai 1y ago
  it's bootstrapped off of GHC. it was only using ChezScheme as an optimizing compiler backend. (i created a PR to refactor their build system to reify the bootstrap process all the way down from GHC. it basically generalized the normal build workflow of Idris2 to be able to animate the entire bootstrap chain from GHC. sadly, it was pretty much ignored, and later abandoned: https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris2/pull/1990 https://github.com/idris-lang/Idris2/pull/1990)
  - soegaard 1y ago
    From the Idris 2 documentation: >> Can Idris 2 compile itself? > Yes, Idris 2 is implemented in Idris 2. By default, it targets Chez Scheme, > so you can bootstrap from the generated Scheme code, as described in Section > Getting Started. Also, check this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9YAOaBWuIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9YAOaBWuIk
    - attila-lendvai 1y ago
      well, i wouldn't call that beeing bootstrapped. in this case the generated scheme code is just a strange form of executable file that happens to need ChezScheme to be executed. i.e. an ELF64 idris2 linux binary vs. an idris2.scm file that needs ChezScheme to come alive. as for Idris2 implemented in Idris2: well, yes, that's true for the current version of Idris2. but the first version of Idris2 was written in Idris1. and the first version of Idris1 was written in Haskell.
igouy 1y ago
fyi https://blog.cloudflare.com/topaz-policy-engine-design/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/topaz-policy-engine-design/
- parlortricks 1y ago
  That was a great read from Cloudflare.
yuppiemephisto 1y ago
These days, I prefer Lean 4. Its macro system is inspired by racket and it has powerful types