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>> If Putin violates the agreement It's not "if", it's "when". Russians negotiates in bad faith, always. They violates agreements for centuries. Putin also li

by ponector 11mo ago

>> If Putin violates the agreement It's not "if", it's "when". Russians negotiates in bad faith, always. They violates agreements for centuries. Putin also lied many times. West will do nothing meaningful to stop them and they know it. That is why we should not push Ukrainians to accept proposed capitulation "deal" from Kremlin.

lokar 11mo ago
This invasion is a violation of a treaty from the 90s!
MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
>West will do nothing meaningful to stop them and they know it. Because the West is guilty of far worse war crimes in the past 50 years, and the whole world knows this. To call Russia to the table for these wars, sets the precedent for other nations to do exactly the same for the USA, the UK, and their allies.[0] Plus, there's that whole "nuclear annihilation" aspect to consider. It's not capitulation. It is an attempt to attain peace and economic stability for the region in a way which will prevent the conflict from flaring up again in the near future. Have you actually read the details of the peace plan, or are you going by media reports, exclusively? Be honest with yourself about this if you wish to discuss it further. [0] I'm all for prosecution of Russian war crimes, if it leads to the exact same procedures being applied to the USA and its allies. The world is sick of war-monger nations getting away with mass murder.
- ponector 11mo ago
  >> It is an attempt to attain peace and economic stability for the region in a way which will prevent the conflict from flaring up again in the near future. "Peace for our time!" Some people skipped history lessons. Russia is not winning the war. To give them Ukrainian capitulation is to reward for starting a war. >> Because the West is guilty of far worse war crimes in the past 50 years, and the whole world knows this. Typical russian whataboutism. But I bite. What crimes west did in past 30 years? Russia started war in Afghanistan, invaded Syria, Georgia, Ukraine. >> the details of the peace plan Nothing there about real punishment russia will get when the next invasion/annexion is going to be. Just a reminder, russia lost to Ichkeria, signed a peace treaty with Chechen. Guess what happened next? Russians always lie.
  - MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
    What crimes of the West? The illegal invasion of Iraq and the murder of 5% of its population - which still suffers, day by day. The destruction of Afghanistan. The destruction of Libya. The funding and support of ISIS. The support of Israels' genocide of Gaza. Somalia. Syria. Yemen. Pakistan. Uganda. Niger. The list goes on and on, why don't you educate yourself here: https://airwars.org/ https://airwars.org/ Or perhaps you think the USA is infallible and should be able to murder whoever its ruling class deems worthy. >Nothing there about real punishment russia will get when the next invasion/annexion is going to be. Untrue. If Russia violates the agreement, the door is open for the rest of the world to wage wholesale war on it. You clearly have not read the terms.
    - ponector 11mo ago
      >> door is open for the rest of the world to wage wholesale war on it. Open by whom? And btw, it is already open, just no one wants to send troops to Ukraine except North Korea. >> The destruction of Afghanistan. Conveniently forgot a decade of russian occupation of Afghanistan. >>The destruction of Libia Khalifa Haftar, the warlord who controls east part of the country is backed up by Russia. In other African countries multiple warlords are backed up by russia. >> The support of Israels' genocide of Gaza. Russia arms different forces around Israel as well. And list goes on. >>invasion of Iraq and the murder of 5% of its population - which still suffers, day by day 5% is another lie, not backed by data. Just one more point you may be simply a russian-backed agent tasked to share their narratives.
      - MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
        5% is backed by data, you just haven't bothered to investigate. Every single day for decades now Iraqi mothers have given birth to still-born children - 50% of children born in Baghdad - because of the US' use of depleted uranium on the battlefield - a war crime if any other nation were to do it. https://psr.org/resources/body-count/ https://psr.org/resources/body-count/ >russian-backed agent This is about as productive as me calling you a bootlicker for empire, which I won't do. I'm not a Russian - I'm simply a member of a co-criminal state in the absolutely phony, criminal 'war on terror', who is willing to hold my government accountable for the heinous crimes committed in my name. Why are you not so willing to take responsibility for our nations war crimes?
- symbol-mason 11mo ago
  You're deeply concerned about US war crimes, but you support a peace deal which specifically gives amnesty for Russian war crimes? Whataboutism leads to such odd rhetorical distractions. This isn't a deal about Gaza, Afghanistan, or Iraq, and the only reason to discuss them is to distract from Russia's military aggression.
  - MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
    If the USA can be granted amnesty for its war crimes, why can't other nations? /s I'd rather see ALL war crimes prosecuted - American, Russian, Israeli, Palestinian, and on and on. But we all know that is never going to happen for as long as the worlds biggest thug nations refuse to allow the people of the world to see such justice.
    - pod_krad 11mo ago
      >If the USA can be granted amnesty for its war crimes, why can't other nations? /s So, criminal code is not necessary anymore? That is your logic? As someone might escape from the justice, why do we need that legislation at all?
      - MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
        No, indeed, the USA should face justice for its war crimes, as should Russia, Israel, the UK and any other nation which uses war, subterfuge and subjugation of other nations as the lynchpin of their foreign policy. Let’s start with the biggest violators, first. That’s the USA. And then we will have the tools to go after Russia and the others.

lokar 11mo ago

This invasion is a violation of a treaty from the 90s!

MomsAVoxell 11mo ago

>West will do nothing meaningful to stop them and they know it. Because the West is guilty of far worse war crimes in the past 50 years, and the whole world knows this. To call Russia to the table for these wars, sets the precedent for other nations to do exactly the same for the USA, the UK, and their allies.[0] Plus, there's that whole "nuclear annihilation" aspect to consider. It's not capitulation. It is an attempt to attain peace and economic stability for the region in a way which will prevent the conflict from flaring up again in the near future. Have you actually read the details of the peace plan, or are you going by media reports, exclusively? Be honest with yourself about this if you wish to discuss it further. [0] I'm all for prosecution of Russian war crimes, if it leads to the exact same procedures being applied to the USA and its allies. The world is sick of war-monger nations getting away with mass murder.

ponector 11mo ago
>> It is an attempt to attain peace and economic stability for the region in a way which will prevent the conflict from flaring up again in the near future. "Peace for our time!" Some people skipped history lessons. Russia is not winning the war. To give them Ukrainian capitulation is to reward for starting a war. >> Because the West is guilty of far worse war crimes in the past 50 years, and the whole world knows this. Typical russian whataboutism. But I bite. What crimes west did in past 30 years? Russia started war in Afghanistan, invaded Syria, Georgia, Ukraine. >> the details of the peace plan Nothing there about real punishment russia will get when the next invasion/annexion is going to be. Just a reminder, russia lost to Ichkeria, signed a peace treaty with Chechen. Guess what happened next? Russians always lie.
- MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
  What crimes of the West? The illegal invasion of Iraq and the murder of 5% of its population - which still suffers, day by day. The destruction of Afghanistan. The destruction of Libya. The funding and support of ISIS. The support of Israels' genocide of Gaza. Somalia. Syria. Yemen. Pakistan. Uganda. Niger. The list goes on and on, why don't you educate yourself here: https://airwars.org/ https://airwars.org/ Or perhaps you think the USA is infallible and should be able to murder whoever its ruling class deems worthy. >Nothing there about real punishment russia will get when the next invasion/annexion is going to be. Untrue. If Russia violates the agreement, the door is open for the rest of the world to wage wholesale war on it. You clearly have not read the terms.
  - ponector 11mo ago
    >> door is open for the rest of the world to wage wholesale war on it. Open by whom? And btw, it is already open, just no one wants to send troops to Ukraine except North Korea. >> The destruction of Afghanistan. Conveniently forgot a decade of russian occupation of Afghanistan. >>The destruction of Libia Khalifa Haftar, the warlord who controls east part of the country is backed up by Russia. In other African countries multiple warlords are backed up by russia. >> The support of Israels' genocide of Gaza. Russia arms different forces around Israel as well. And list goes on. >>invasion of Iraq and the murder of 5% of its population - which still suffers, day by day 5% is another lie, not backed by data. Just one more point you may be simply a russian-backed agent tasked to share their narratives.
    - MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
      5% is backed by data, you just haven't bothered to investigate. Every single day for decades now Iraqi mothers have given birth to still-born children - 50% of children born in Baghdad - because of the US' use of depleted uranium on the battlefield - a war crime if any other nation were to do it. https://psr.org/resources/body-count/ https://psr.org/resources/body-count/ >russian-backed agent This is about as productive as me calling you a bootlicker for empire, which I won't do. I'm not a Russian - I'm simply a member of a co-criminal state in the absolutely phony, criminal 'war on terror', who is willing to hold my government accountable for the heinous crimes committed in my name. Why are you not so willing to take responsibility for our nations war crimes?
symbol-mason 11mo ago
You're deeply concerned about US war crimes, but you support a peace deal which specifically gives amnesty for Russian war crimes? Whataboutism leads to such odd rhetorical distractions. This isn't a deal about Gaza, Afghanistan, or Iraq, and the only reason to discuss them is to distract from Russia's military aggression.
- MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
  If the USA can be granted amnesty for its war crimes, why can't other nations? /s I'd rather see ALL war crimes prosecuted - American, Russian, Israeli, Palestinian, and on and on. But we all know that is never going to happen for as long as the worlds biggest thug nations refuse to allow the people of the world to see such justice.
  - pod_krad 11mo ago
    >If the USA can be granted amnesty for its war crimes, why can't other nations? /s So, criminal code is not necessary anymore? That is your logic? As someone might escape from the justice, why do we need that legislation at all?
    - MomsAVoxell 11mo ago
      No, indeed, the USA should face justice for its war crimes, as should Russia, Israel, the UK and any other nation which uses war, subterfuge and subjugation of other nations as the lynchpin of their foreign policy. Let’s start with the biggest violators, first. That’s the USA. And then we will have the tools to go after Russia and the others.