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> Incidentally, I don't mean to call you out in particular, but when you call grownup female programmers "girls," lots of very cool women will decide to hang ou

> Incidentally, I don't mean to call you out in particular, but when you call grownup female programmers "girls," lots of very cool women will decide to hang out somewhere else -- sort of for the same reason black men in the US aren't going to love it if someone calls them "boys." I agree with you that calling female programmers and coworkers as girls is demeaning, but it IS NOT the same as calling a black man a boy, which has a long history of racist oppression.

BCM43 14y ago
which has a long history of racist oppression. And there is no history of sexist oppression?
- king_jester 14y ago
  There is a history current state of sexist oppression, just as with racism. I didn't mean to imply that there is a mutual exclusion: racism and sexism are active parts of our culture and society, both today and in the past. I only want to point out that racism and sexism, while related, are distinct and different. Referring to women in professional circles as girls is a very different kind of thing compared to calling a black man "boy", and attempts to draw parallels between the two are problematic, as we get into the territory of identity and experience erasure.
seanalltogether 14y ago
The easiest way to insult any male is to refer to him as a boy. For males it carries the sting of naiveté and inadequacy. Females on the other have a very positive attachment with youth and "girls" and clearly spend a lot of energy continuing to identify themselves that way.
- king_jester 14y ago
  I wasn't really getting at this. Calling a black man "boy" is extremely racist and doesn't have to do with gender identity. It has to due with systematic culture destruction and oppression as a result of slavery in the United States and conditions in which black folks were placed post slavery.
roguecoder 14y ago
Calling females "girls" or otherwise infantalizing them was used to deny them property, bodily autonomy, voting rights and independent personhood. The abolition and marriage property rights movements went hand in hand. I'm not arguing that they are equivalent, but both are part of a long history of violent oppression.
JackC 14y ago
I totally get what you're saying, and I know any comparison of different groups with different troubles is tricky. They're not identical. But I'll stand behind the analogy. Take a look at how 1950s professional men in Mad Men call their female coworkers "girls." You know what the legal context was? Women were literally a lower caste than men. Didn't have the same rights to divorce, didn't have the same rights to appear in court, didn't have the same rights to serve on juries, didn't have the same rights to take many respectable jobs, didn't have a right to equal pay for the jobs they could take, didn't have the right to stop their husbands from raping them, didn't have the same rights to inherit property. 50-year-old women were called "girls" by 30-year-old men because the law itself treated women like servants, wards, or objects rather than independent adults. And this was true throughout the United States when you, or your mother, or your grandmother was born. So I do think it's similar to the kind of issues that black men have with "boy." But thanks for your thoughtful response, even if I disagree. I try not to rant about this stuff, and I hate that we have to cope with it all in order to have a simple conversation, but here we are. There's plenty of crappy history to go around.

BCM43 14y ago

which has a long history of racist oppression. And there is no history of sexist oppression?

king_jester 14y ago
There is a history current state of sexist oppression, just as with racism. I didn't mean to imply that there is a mutual exclusion: racism and sexism are active parts of our culture and society, both today and in the past. I only want to point out that racism and sexism, while related, are distinct and different. Referring to women in professional circles as girls is a very different kind of thing compared to calling a black man "boy", and attempts to draw parallels between the two are problematic, as we get into the territory of identity and experience erasure.

seanalltogether 14y ago

The easiest way to insult any male is to refer to him as a boy. For males it carries the sting of naiveté and inadequacy. Females on the other have a very positive attachment with youth and "girls" and clearly spend a lot of energy continuing to identify themselves that way.

king_jester 14y ago
I wasn't really getting at this. Calling a black man "boy" is extremely racist and doesn't have to do with gender identity. It has to due with systematic culture destruction and oppression as a result of slavery in the United States and conditions in which black folks were placed post slavery.

roguecoder 14y ago

Calling females "girls" or otherwise infantalizing them was used to deny them property, bodily autonomy, voting rights and independent personhood. The abolition and marriage property rights movements went hand in hand. I'm not arguing that they are equivalent, but both are part of a long history of violent oppression.

JackC 14y ago

I totally get what you're saying, and I know any comparison of different groups with different troubles is tricky. They're not identical. But I'll stand behind the analogy. Take a look at how 1950s professional men in Mad Men call their female coworkers "girls." You know what the legal context was? Women were literally a lower caste than men. Didn't have the same rights to divorce, didn't have the same rights to appear in court, didn't have the same rights to serve on juries, didn't have the same rights to take many respectable jobs, didn't have a right to equal pay for the jobs they could take, didn't have the right to stop their husbands from raping them, didn't have the same rights to inherit property. 50-year-old women were called "girls" by 30-year-old men because the law itself treated women like servants, wards, or objects rather than independent adults. And this was true throughout the United States when you, or your mother, or your grandmother was born. So I do think it's similar to the kind of issues that black men have with "boy." But thanks for your thoughtful response, even if I disagree. I try not to rant about this stuff, and I hate that we have to cope with it all in order to have a simple conversation, but here we are. There's plenty of crappy history to go around.