4 ms·

Linkbait -> flagged. It's merely another ``There is misogyny in CS, we gotta do something''. Lacking in OP: - hard facts how it impacts us, - useful prop

by dexen 14y ago

Linkbait -> flagged. It's merely another ``There is misogyny in CS, we gotta do something''. Lacking in OP: - hard facts how it impacts us, - useful proposals, - *any* insight.

chris_wot 14y ago
Here's a "hard fact". There are a lack of women in IT. Here's a useful proposal - stop making sexist comments in your talks. The above I hope you can take as insight.
- chikakicks 14y ago
  So what if there is a lack of women in IT? There is a lack of men in Human Resources and child care. Why is it an issue? Why does our society need to be specially engineered to reflect demographics in some industries and not in other. Having said that, I don't believe such remarks should have a place in any professional conference.
  - regularfry 14y ago
    It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop, and because the reason half of those with the intellectual potential aren't interested is downright insulting. There's also research to say mixed gender teams perform better along some axes, but that's peanuts next to the numbers game.
  - sp332 14y ago
    It's not about "society" it's about IT. I don't have a moral reason to make all genders equal or whatever. I just want more women in IT because A) we need more people in IT in general and B) women have different kinds of interests, influences, and experiences in our society and it would be good to add those to our collective problem-solving pool.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    I disagree that there aren't enough people in IT. What I makes me annoyed is that there are many, many talented women who could be in IT or CS but who don't participate because of sexism or hostility in the workplace ecause of their gender. It's not a matter of "lighten up". It's a matter of "stop being sexist and hostil to women". The onus is not on the victim to change her behaviour, but rather very much on the transgressors!
    - chikakicks 14y ago
      What I makes me annoyed is that there are many, many talented women who could be in IT or CS but who don't participate because of sexism or hostility in the workplace ecause of their gender. What industries do these women participate in?
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        I don't know. Not IT?
    - randomdata 14y ago
      Both my mother and wife work in the health field and both are always going on about all the hostility that goes on in the workplace, to the point that they are both ready to leave – some of their colleagues have already done so for the same reasons. Yet, the health industry remains a place where a lot of women are drawn to work in it. I'm not trying to justify the actions of people in IT. I'm all for it to become the paragon for the treatment of women and set the standard for the rest of the working world. However, I'm not sure IT is unique in this regard so it does not really explain why woman are drawn away into other, just as hostile, professions.
- dexen 14y ago
  > Here's a "hard fact". There are a lack of women in IT. Agreed, there's significant disparity. My whole point is, that's all clear by now, no need to re-iterate every other day on top of HN. Now we want hard data and plans to act upon. But posts like OP are merely me-too rants. > It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop Please, PLEASE stop that cliche. Not enough people in IT for what -- saving human lifes by creating CAT scanners and whatnot? Programming navigational computers for space exploration? Building the proverbial `Next Big Thing'? Or just for creating cute little flash games and sloppy AAA titles? The mission-critical stuff gets cared of. It always was did, for several decades now. The haggle for more cheap labor goes for nonessentials, like enterntainment and business-line CRUD apps. Which are merely nice to have. There's not enough skilled professionals from the buyers' perspective. There's too many skilled professionals from the sellers' prespective. Oh gasp the horror of open market.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    I didn't write "It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop" so I'm not sure why ths comment is directed at me!
tmorton 14y ago
Seriously? The "useful proposals" are spelled out in the next-to-last section. TLDR version: conference organizers need to stop tolerating this sort of thing. Everyone involved should "admit you screwed up, apologize, and tell me how you’ll prevent this in the future."
ElliotH 14y ago
News Guidelines: "If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did." Seriously, if you think this is inappropriate for HN, flag it, upvote stuff you do think is appropriate and then go comment on something interesting. Don't mean to rant at you, but I see 'flagged' so often in comments recently - its just noise.
king_jester 14y ago
I love how you are demanding evidence and to be explained to, when women who suffer sexist treatment in IT and software communities are under no obligation to do so. Repeat after me: people you are harassing and oppressing DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU why you are screwing them over. EDIT: Also, there is so much information about sexism in US culture, esp. in regards to tech communities. The Geek Feminism wiki linked to in the article is a good starting point. That you come demanding someone hand you info on a silver platter instead of doing the right thing and reading something to figure it out is really points out how much of a sexist you are.
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  Right, but then everyone else is under no obligation to modify their behavior for your comfort level. It works both ways. You explain yourself so that your POV can be understood by those whose behavior you want to change.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    You are free to not change your behavior. Be a sexist asshat all you like. However, people reserve the right to call you out on that behavior for what it is: oppressive and bigoted. I find it ironic that you are saying that people should explain their points of view to be understood by others. The article these comments are under is one such piece: an author explaining why what was said at this conference was a problem. Your response to this new information was dismissal: that what the author saying is not valid for you so you won't consider it. For people that suffer micro-aggressions like this every day, no amount of evidence and explaining they offer is enough, and sometimes attempts to even stand up for themselves results in direct violence. It is not up to those who are being mistreated to make you change or to serve your interests -- you are in the position of privilege and have the means to learn. What you really believe is revealed in your actions: challenging those who reveal an uncomfortable truth and/or talk about their personal experience. EDIT: I mistakenly thought that hackinthebochs was dexen, so this response is misleading. I'm leaving it intact for context.
    - 14y ago

by dexen 14y ago

Linkbait -> flagged. It's merely another ``There is misogyny in CS, we gotta do something''. Lacking in OP: - hard facts how it impacts us, - useful proposals, - *any* insight.

chris_wot 14y ago

Here's a "hard fact". There are a lack of women in IT. Here's a useful proposal - stop making sexist comments in your talks. The above I hope you can take as insight.

chikakicks 14y ago
So what if there is a lack of women in IT? There is a lack of men in Human Resources and child care. Why is it an issue? Why does our society need to be specially engineered to reflect demographics in some industries and not in other. Having said that, I don't believe such remarks should have a place in any professional conference.
- regularfry 14y ago
  It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop, and because the reason half of those with the intellectual potential aren't interested is downright insulting. There's also research to say mixed gender teams perform better along some axes, but that's peanuts next to the numbers game.
- sp332 14y ago
  It's not about "society" it's about IT. I don't have a moral reason to make all genders equal or whatever. I just want more women in IT because A) we need more people in IT in general and B) women have different kinds of interests, influences, and experiences in our society and it would be good to add those to our collective problem-solving pool.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  I disagree that there aren't enough people in IT. What I makes me annoyed is that there are many, many talented women who could be in IT or CS but who don't participate because of sexism or hostility in the workplace ecause of their gender. It's not a matter of "lighten up". It's a matter of "stop being sexist and hostil to women". The onus is not on the victim to change her behaviour, but rather very much on the transgressors!
  - chikakicks 14y ago
    What I makes me annoyed is that there are many, many talented women who could be in IT or CS but who don't participate because of sexism or hostility in the workplace ecause of their gender. What industries do these women participate in?
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      I don't know. Not IT?
  - randomdata 14y ago
    Both my mother and wife work in the health field and both are always going on about all the hostility that goes on in the workplace, to the point that they are both ready to leave – some of their colleagues have already done so for the same reasons. Yet, the health industry remains a place where a lot of women are drawn to work in it. I'm not trying to justify the actions of people in IT. I'm all for it to become the paragon for the treatment of women and set the standard for the rest of the working world. However, I'm not sure IT is unique in this regard so it does not really explain why woman are drawn away into other, just as hostile, professions.
dexen 14y ago
> Here's a "hard fact". There are a lack of women in IT. Agreed, there's significant disparity. My whole point is, that's all clear by now, no need to re-iterate every other day on top of HN. Now we want hard data and plans to act upon. But posts like OP are merely me-too rants. > It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop Please, PLEASE stop that cliche. Not enough people in IT for what -- saving human lifes by creating CAT scanners and whatnot? Programming navigational computers for space exploration? Building the proverbial `Next Big Thing'? Or just for creating cute little flash games and sloppy AAA titles? The mission-critical stuff gets cared of. It always was did, for several decades now. The haggle for more cheap labor goes for nonessentials, like enterntainment and business-line CRUD apps. Which are merely nice to have. There's not enough skilled professionals from the buyers' perspective. There's too many skilled professionals from the sellers' prespective. Oh gasp the horror of open market.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  I didn't write "It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop" so I'm not sure why ths comment is directed at me!

tmorton 14y ago

Seriously? The "useful proposals" are spelled out in the next-to-last section. TLDR version: conference organizers need to stop tolerating this sort of thing. Everyone involved should "admit you screwed up, apologize, and tell me how you’ll prevent this in the future."

ElliotH 14y ago

News Guidelines: "If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did." Seriously, if you think this is inappropriate for HN, flag it, upvote stuff you do think is appropriate and then go comment on something interesting. Don't mean to rant at you, but I see 'flagged' so often in comments recently - its just noise.

king_jester 14y ago

I love how you are demanding evidence and to be explained to, when women who suffer sexist treatment in IT and software communities are under no obligation to do so. Repeat after me: people you are harassing and oppressing DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU why you are screwing them over. EDIT: Also, there is so much information about sexism in US culture, esp. in regards to tech communities. The Geek Feminism wiki linked to in the article is a good starting point. That you come demanding someone hand you info on a silver platter instead of doing the right thing and reading something to figure it out is really points out how much of a sexist you are.

hackinthebochs 14y ago
Right, but then everyone else is under no obligation to modify their behavior for your comfort level. It works both ways. You explain yourself so that your POV can be understood by those whose behavior you want to change.
- king_jester 14y ago
  You are free to not change your behavior. Be a sexist asshat all you like. However, people reserve the right to call you out on that behavior for what it is: oppressive and bigoted. I find it ironic that you are saying that people should explain their points of view to be understood by others. The article these comments are under is one such piece: an author explaining why what was said at this conference was a problem. Your response to this new information was dismissal: that what the author saying is not valid for you so you won't consider it. For people that suffer micro-aggressions like this every day, no amount of evidence and explaining they offer is enough, and sometimes attempts to even stand up for themselves results in direct violence. It is not up to those who are being mistreated to make you change or to serve your interests -- you are in the position of privilege and have the means to learn. What you really believe is revealed in your actions: challenging those who reveal an uncomfortable truth and/or talk about their personal experience. EDIT: I mistakenly thought that hackinthebochs was dexen, so this response is misleading. I'm leaving it intact for context.
  - 14y ago