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I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software is out in force on Hacker News: * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's jus

I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software is out in force on Hacker News: * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just idiots being idiots. * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just jerks being jerks. * Dismissive pedantry over the claim that women are deterred from software by incidents of sexism. * Blaming women themselves for not going into software. And all of it laced with blithe stereotyping language ("panty bunching equivalent", "bitching", "drama" and so on). This predictably depressing reaction hasn't been good enough for a long time. The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it.

debacle 14y ago
> The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face. Yes, I agree completely. The reason is entirely clear - from a young age, boys are marketed to in an entirely different fashion than girls, parents gently nudge their daughters into more passive roles, and the types of toys that are available for girls that don't reinforce social stereotypes suck in a fashion that I don't think I can explain to someone who isn't raising a daughter. Lego has finally released some Legos (yeah, I pluralize it) that appeal to girls, and while some of them are lame (a hair salon, for example), others are cool, but the vast overwhelming acreage of the girls' half of any given toy store is filled with pink dolls, barbies, kitchen sets, crap to do with your hair, and the the type of half-assed girl versions of boy toys that make a responsible parent want to burn the place down.
- btilly 14y ago
  I agree with you that those toys and that marketing sucks, but I disagree that it is entirely clear that the toys and marketing are the cause of the problem. Let me offer an example. I have a pair of friends who are both PhDs in CS, and both work at Google. They have a daughter whom both parents would love to see in engineering. The mom has the following story of when she gave up trying to resist her daughter's inclinations to make everything pretty instead of wanting to build stuff. Mom left her daughter to play with a box of regular legos for a bit hoping that she would try to build something. When she came back a few minutes later, every green lego was out and a smattering of others scattered over the floor. Her daughter looked up with a big smile and announced, "Look! Here is my lawn, and these are the pretty flowers!" I have watched this with my own daughter. First, let's be clear, we do not have a TV in our house and she does not see most of that marketing. But everything "girly" that she's been exposed to, she wants. Why? My best guess is that she's keenly aware that she's a girl, she's not a boy, and she actively seeks out clues as to how to not be a boy. At preschool she gets exposed to the idea of what girls play with, and she's happy to go along. That is in her case it isn't a push from the external environment to be that way. It is a pull from within herself to figure out how to conform. Whatever the cause, the extreme girl toys you hate are in the store because they sell. The marketing that you hate is done because it works.
  - debacle 14y ago
    Yes, I see that in my daughter as well. She plays with dragons and dinosaurs (her choice) but instead of them killing each other (like in my son's case) they have families and go to the park. Though with Lego she does build very creatively, it might be my son's influence.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I entirely agree, the main reason I got into tech was that I enjoyed video games as a child and had a pier group of male friends who also enjoyed them. We got into doing programming because it allowed us to make and modify games. At my university CS class, a large number of the guys there had similar motivations. Now consider that the majority of video games were marketed towards males at that time and it's not difficult to see a link. However these days with the rise of casual/social gaming and it becoming more socially acceptable for girls to play video games in general, combined with the fact that blogging and running webstores etc are popular with women we might actually start to see a steady organic shift as more women enter the industry. In other words, I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the industry itself for everything. Sure, people who are doing things that will actively discourage women from entering the industry or make women already here feel bad about themselves in some way should stop doing that. OTOH when you have an industry that is 90% male it seems inevitable that it will cater to the male demographic first.
- acheron 14y ago
  For what it's worth, Lego has been trying to release products to "appeal to girls" for a long time, there's nothing "finally" about it. First I remember offhand are the "Paradisa" sets from 1993 or so, which were basically the same as other "town" Lego sets, but in pastel colors. Those stuck around for a couple years, then Lego moved onto a different supposedly-girl-oriented theme. I do recall hearing that they've recently released the latest attempt, but it's not a new idea.
  - debacle 14y ago
    I think this new round has actually worked.
- marcos123 14y ago
  > The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face. I'm no node.js wiz here, but I think I have a valid idea... maybe the reason that most of the women that didn't become programmers, didn't become programmers because they had no interest in it and didn't want to become a programmer? Also, does anyone else get the sinking feeling that the reason so many young men on HN feel so strongly about "fixing" the fact that many women have no interest in writing code, is actually more about said young mens' desire to work in an office where they are surrounded by women all day?
  - mcguire 14y ago
    "I'm no node.js wiz here, but I think I have a valid idea... maybe the reason that most of the women that didn't become programmers, didn't become programmers because they had no interest in it and didn't want to become a programmer?" {{Citation needed}}
  - EnderMB 14y ago
    I agree entirely. A lot of people on here seem to be clutching at straws at best. They offer a lot of "evidence" into why women aren't programmers without actually knowing anything. In my head, positive discrimination is another form of discrimination. I know plenty of female programmers and they all got into programming because that's what they wanted to do, not because it was marketed as a career to them and not because they've never interacted with shitty co-workers. If there's any problem with Software Engineering as a career it's the idea that it's a field for socially-inept nerds that sit in the basement and code away from the outside world. The "evidence" for this attitude is all over the place and in my mind this is as likely to turn women away from the field as much as it is men. When the field decides to stop allowing itself to be further commoditised and demand some respect (and better pay) we might see more women want to join us.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  I disagree heavily. You're right that boys are marketed to differently than girls, and there is still a heavy bias in media, fashion, and toys towards antiquated gender roles. But it doesn't explain the lack of women in software, because there are record-breaking numbers of women going into fields that were previously stereotypically male. All the physical sciences, law, medicine, you name it. Women are busting out of the traditional gender stereotypes in every direction except software. So whatever the effects of gender role indoctrination in children, the software industry is doing worse, much much worse than even that pathetic baseline. Knowing this, IMO blaming the phenomenon on society in general is a huge cop out. We are doing far, far worse than just about any other profession.
  - true_religion 14y ago
    Name one field with low social prestige that has a record number amount of women entering it. Remember, the software industry is where "nerds" go, but the "smart money" is in finance and the "creme of the crop" is in finance. My thinking is that in aggregate women choose to go to the highest paying, and most socially prestigious fields: law, medicine, finance, sciences in that order.
    - jarek 14y ago
      Where do you live that lab research chemistry, to pick one specific subfield, is more socially prestigious or higher paying than software development?
theorique 14y ago
Sexism is not endemic to software. As far as I've seen, there's no compiler flag that declares your gender (or race, or cultural background). That's actually one of the great things about it - it's objective. Your code isn't female or Asian or Black or gay or whatever - it compiles or it doesn't, solves the problem or it doesn't. Of course, sexism is present in software communities. It's spearheaded by the boneheads, condoned by the silent, and condemned by those who would like to see it change. And that's a fine thing.
ry0ohki 14y ago
"The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it." This is the primary argument I disagree with. As someone who's worked with ad agencies, I can say sexism is so much worse there, yet there are tons of women in advertising. I agree with the poster that this type of thing shouldn't be tolerated in a professional context, but I don't think this is the reason women are not interested in computer science as a major and job choice (it may be the reason they have a high attrition rate once there though)
- mediacrisis 14y ago
  Just because its arguably worse somewhere else doesn't make it less of an issue in other fields.
  - theorique 14y ago
    Right, but it may act as a counterexample as to why more women aren't in CS/CE/programming. Advertising and finance (my field) are both known to be sexist and yet there are plenty of women in these fields. CS/CE/programming is known to be sexist and there are not so many women in this field. Sexism is a factor, but it's not the only factor.
  - peteretep 14y ago
    That would be true if other fields were also having trouble attracting recruits. Sexism, intentional or as a result of boorishness is unacceptable and bad. Needs change, and that needs to be a priority. Got it, agree. Also think that diversity for the sake of diversity is a good thing, as controversial as some people find that. But the point is: more chauvinistic and sexist industries (eg: finance, advertising, previously medicine) appear to be having little trouble attracting women. So why is it that software puts its gender imbalance down almost exclusively to chauvinism?
    - mediacrisis 14y ago
      Without having worked in finance or national level advertising, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you other than how I perceive those industries, but that is neither here nor there. As a datapoint, I cannot for the life of me understand why a woman wouldn't work in software other than the environment. I enjoy my work thoroughly. It pays well, its engaging, and I find it rewarding. Do I speak for my entire gender? Of course not, but neither does any other woman.
hluska 14y ago
This is one of the best comments I have ever read on here. Seriously great work - thanks for writing this!
kmm 14y ago
It's extremely bad style to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of sexism. I don't think sexism is endemic to software, at least not more than areas where men are underrepresented. I don't think this talk was sexist, at least not only to women. I don't think anyone's to "blame" that women don't go into software. If anything, I've been way more convinced by the explanation that society pressures boys into strict field, like the STEM fields, and girls into "softer" fields.
- npsimons 14y ago
  It's extremely bad style to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of sexism. Fuck style; if it's true, it needs to be addressed.
  - spindritf 14y ago
    It's worse than just bad style, it's a label "used to suppress ideas" http://www.paulgraham.com/labels.html http://www.paulgraham.com/labels.html
    - fusiongyro 14y ago
      What ideas do you think are being suppressed here? The idea that this isn't a problem? The idea that we shouldn't do anything about it, because idiots will be idiots or jerks will be jerks? The fact is that accusing the whistleblower of being impolite is just another barrier thrown up by thin-skinned people who cannot admit they've been wrong. The objective of calling it "bad style" or a "label used to suppress ideas" is itself to suppress the idea that something wrong has happened and must be addressed.
      - zwdr 14y ago
        So writing a rant now is "whistleblowing"? Can I add that to my resumee?
    - king_jester 14y ago
      Nobody is suppressing ideas in this scenario. You are free to be a sexist jerk if you want to. However, people absolutely have the right to call you out on that behavior and statements made to that effect. If you are implying that calling out shitty behavior is itself a shitty behavior, then you might want to reexamine why you are supporting the behavior of sexists and chauvinists.
zwdr 14y ago
>I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software is out in force on Hacker News: Recurring points of view in a certain discussion? Who would've thought about that? >* Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just idiots being idiots. Thats not an excuse. How is that justifying anything? Why do you insist otherwise? Do you have empirical evidence? >* Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just jerks being jerks. Same as above. What are you talking about? Nobody "excuses" anything. >* Dismissive pedantry over the claim that women are deterred from software by incidents of sexism. A discussion? We're having a discussion? What do you mean not everybody agrees? Oh no! >* Blaming women themselves for not going into software. "Blaming"? Seriously? There we go again.It's neither "blaming", nor "excusing". Obviously there might be other factors which doesn't make IT as attractive for women than other fields. >The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it. Are you serious? There is ONE (1) reason for that? Oh, if reality was that simple of a system!
kamaal 14y ago
>>I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software You don't see the usual grab bag of anybody making excuses for their failures. Which is to basically blame everybody apart from themselves for their problems.

debacle 14y ago

> The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face. Yes, I agree completely. The reason is entirely clear - from a young age, boys are marketed to in an entirely different fashion than girls, parents gently nudge their daughters into more passive roles, and the types of toys that are available for girls that don't reinforce social stereotypes suck in a fashion that I don't think I can explain to someone who isn't raising a daughter. Lego has finally released some Legos (yeah, I pluralize it) that appeal to girls, and while some of them are lame (a hair salon, for example), others are cool, but the vast overwhelming acreage of the girls' half of any given toy store is filled with pink dolls, barbies, kitchen sets, crap to do with your hair, and the the type of half-assed girl versions of boy toys that make a responsible parent want to burn the place down.

btilly 14y ago
I agree with you that those toys and that marketing sucks, but I disagree that it is entirely clear that the toys and marketing are the cause of the problem. Let me offer an example. I have a pair of friends who are both PhDs in CS, and both work at Google. They have a daughter whom both parents would love to see in engineering. The mom has the following story of when she gave up trying to resist her daughter's inclinations to make everything pretty instead of wanting to build stuff. Mom left her daughter to play with a box of regular legos for a bit hoping that she would try to build something. When she came back a few minutes later, every green lego was out and a smattering of others scattered over the floor. Her daughter looked up with a big smile and announced, "Look! Here is my lawn, and these are the pretty flowers!" I have watched this with my own daughter. First, let's be clear, we do not have a TV in our house and she does not see most of that marketing. But everything "girly" that she's been exposed to, she wants. Why? My best guess is that she's keenly aware that she's a girl, she's not a boy, and she actively seeks out clues as to how to not be a boy. At preschool she gets exposed to the idea of what girls play with, and she's happy to go along. That is in her case it isn't a push from the external environment to be that way. It is a pull from within herself to figure out how to conform. Whatever the cause, the extreme girl toys you hate are in the store because they sell. The marketing that you hate is done because it works.
- debacle 14y ago
  Yes, I see that in my daughter as well. She plays with dragons and dinosaurs (her choice) but instead of them killing each other (like in my son's case) they have families and go to the park. Though with Lego she does build very creatively, it might be my son's influence.
jiggy2011 14y ago
I entirely agree, the main reason I got into tech was that I enjoyed video games as a child and had a pier group of male friends who also enjoyed them. We got into doing programming because it allowed us to make and modify games. At my university CS class, a large number of the guys there had similar motivations. Now consider that the majority of video games were marketed towards males at that time and it's not difficult to see a link. However these days with the rise of casual/social gaming and it becoming more socially acceptable for girls to play video games in general, combined with the fact that blogging and running webstores etc are popular with women we might actually start to see a steady organic shift as more women enter the industry. In other words, I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the industry itself for everything. Sure, people who are doing things that will actively discourage women from entering the industry or make women already here feel bad about themselves in some way should stop doing that. OTOH when you have an industry that is 90% male it seems inevitable that it will cater to the male demographic first.
acheron 14y ago
For what it's worth, Lego has been trying to release products to "appeal to girls" for a long time, there's nothing "finally" about it. First I remember offhand are the "Paradisa" sets from 1993 or so, which were basically the same as other "town" Lego sets, but in pastel colors. Those stuck around for a couple years, then Lego moved onto a different supposedly-girl-oriented theme. I do recall hearing that they've recently released the latest attempt, but it's not a new idea.
- debacle 14y ago
  I think this new round has actually worked.
marcos123 14y ago
> The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face. I'm no node.js wiz here, but I think I have a valid idea... maybe the reason that most of the women that didn't become programmers, didn't become programmers because they had no interest in it and didn't want to become a programmer? Also, does anyone else get the sinking feeling that the reason so many young men on HN feel so strongly about "fixing" the fact that many women have no interest in writing code, is actually more about said young mens' desire to work in an office where they are surrounded by women all day?
- mcguire 14y ago
  "I'm no node.js wiz here, but I think I have a valid idea... maybe the reason that most of the women that didn't become programmers, didn't become programmers because they had no interest in it and didn't want to become a programmer?" {{Citation needed}}
- EnderMB 14y ago
  I agree entirely. A lot of people on here seem to be clutching at straws at best. They offer a lot of "evidence" into why women aren't programmers without actually knowing anything. In my head, positive discrimination is another form of discrimination. I know plenty of female programmers and they all got into programming because that's what they wanted to do, not because it was marketed as a career to them and not because they've never interacted with shitty co-workers. If there's any problem with Software Engineering as a career it's the idea that it's a field for socially-inept nerds that sit in the basement and code away from the outside world. The "evidence" for this attitude is all over the place and in my mind this is as likely to turn women away from the field as much as it is men. When the field decides to stop allowing itself to be further commoditised and demand some respect (and better pay) we might see more women want to join us.
potatolicious 14y ago
I disagree heavily. You're right that boys are marketed to differently than girls, and there is still a heavy bias in media, fashion, and toys towards antiquated gender roles. But it doesn't explain the lack of women in software, because there are record-breaking numbers of women going into fields that were previously stereotypically male. All the physical sciences, law, medicine, you name it. Women are busting out of the traditional gender stereotypes in every direction except software. So whatever the effects of gender role indoctrination in children, the software industry is doing worse, much much worse than even that pathetic baseline. Knowing this, IMO blaming the phenomenon on society in general is a huge cop out. We are doing far, far worse than just about any other profession.
- true_religion 14y ago
  Name one field with low social prestige that has a record number amount of women entering it. Remember, the software industry is where "nerds" go, but the "smart money" is in finance and the "creme of the crop" is in finance. My thinking is that in aggregate women choose to go to the highest paying, and most socially prestigious fields: law, medicine, finance, sciences in that order.
  - jarek 14y ago
    Where do you live that lab research chemistry, to pick one specific subfield, is more socially prestigious or higher paying than software development?

theorique 14y ago

Sexism is not endemic to software. As far as I've seen, there's no compiler flag that declares your gender (or race, or cultural background). That's actually one of the great things about it - it's objective. Your code isn't female or Asian or Black or gay or whatever - it compiles or it doesn't, solves the problem or it doesn't. Of course, sexism is present in software communities. It's spearheaded by the boneheads, condoned by the silent, and condemned by those who would like to see it change. And that's a fine thing.

ry0ohki 14y ago

"The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it." This is the primary argument I disagree with. As someone who's worked with ad agencies, I can say sexism is so much worse there, yet there are tons of women in advertising. I agree with the poster that this type of thing shouldn't be tolerated in a professional context, but I don't think this is the reason women are not interested in computer science as a major and job choice (it may be the reason they have a high attrition rate once there though)

mediacrisis 14y ago
Just because its arguably worse somewhere else doesn't make it less of an issue in other fields.
- theorique 14y ago
  Right, but it may act as a counterexample as to why more women aren't in CS/CE/programming. Advertising and finance (my field) are both known to be sexist and yet there are plenty of women in these fields. CS/CE/programming is known to be sexist and there are not so many women in this field. Sexism is a factor, but it's not the only factor.
- peteretep 14y ago
  That would be true if other fields were also having trouble attracting recruits. Sexism, intentional or as a result of boorishness is unacceptable and bad. Needs change, and that needs to be a priority. Got it, agree. Also think that diversity for the sake of diversity is a good thing, as controversial as some people find that. But the point is: more chauvinistic and sexist industries (eg: finance, advertising, previously medicine) appear to be having little trouble attracting women. So why is it that software puts its gender imbalance down almost exclusively to chauvinism?
  - mediacrisis 14y ago
    Without having worked in finance or national level advertising, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you other than how I perceive those industries, but that is neither here nor there. As a datapoint, I cannot for the life of me understand why a woman wouldn't work in software other than the environment. I enjoy my work thoroughly. It pays well, its engaging, and I find it rewarding. Do I speak for my entire gender? Of course not, but neither does any other woman.

hluska 14y ago

This is one of the best comments I have ever read on here. Seriously great work - thanks for writing this!

kmm 14y ago

It's extremely bad style to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of sexism. I don't think sexism is endemic to software, at least not more than areas where men are underrepresented. I don't think this talk was sexist, at least not only to women. I don't think anyone's to "blame" that women don't go into software. If anything, I've been way more convinced by the explanation that society pressures boys into strict field, like the STEM fields, and girls into "softer" fields.

npsimons 14y ago
It's extremely bad style to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of sexism. Fuck style; if it's true, it needs to be addressed.
- spindritf 14y ago
  It's worse than just bad style, it's a label "used to suppress ideas" http://www.paulgraham.com/labels.html http://www.paulgraham.com/labels.html
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    What ideas do you think are being suppressed here? The idea that this isn't a problem? The idea that we shouldn't do anything about it, because idiots will be idiots or jerks will be jerks? The fact is that accusing the whistleblower of being impolite is just another barrier thrown up by thin-skinned people who cannot admit they've been wrong. The objective of calling it "bad style" or a "label used to suppress ideas" is itself to suppress the idea that something wrong has happened and must be addressed.
    - zwdr 14y ago
      So writing a rant now is "whistleblowing"? Can I add that to my resumee?
  - king_jester 14y ago
    Nobody is suppressing ideas in this scenario. You are free to be a sexist jerk if you want to. However, people absolutely have the right to call you out on that behavior and statements made to that effect. If you are implying that calling out shitty behavior is itself a shitty behavior, then you might want to reexamine why you are supporting the behavior of sexists and chauvinists.

zwdr 14y ago

>I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software is out in force on Hacker News: Recurring points of view in a certain discussion? Who would've thought about that? >* Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just idiots being idiots. Thats not an excuse. How is that justifying anything? Why do you insist otherwise? Do you have empirical evidence? >* Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just jerks being jerks. Same as above. What are you talking about? Nobody "excuses" anything. >* Dismissive pedantry over the claim that women are deterred from software by incidents of sexism. A discussion? We're having a discussion? What do you mean not everybody agrees? Oh no! >* Blaming women themselves for not going into software. "Blaming"? Seriously? There we go again.It's neither "blaming", nor "excusing". Obviously there might be other factors which doesn't make IT as attractive for women than other fields. >The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it. Are you serious? There is ONE (1) reason for that? Oh, if reality was that simple of a system!

kamaal 14y ago

>>I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software You don't see the usual grab bag of anybody making excuses for their failures. Which is to basically blame everybody apart from themselves for their problems.