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> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Approximately 25,000 americans gave their lives in the revolutionary war. Ever

by jjk166 11mo ago

> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Approximately 25,000 americans gave their lives in the revolutionary war. Every signer of the declaration of independence was signing their own death warrant should they have lost to the strongest military in the world. This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice.

WalterBright 11mo ago
The price of freedom is always paid in blood. > This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice. I recommend reading the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and if you really want to get into it, the Federalist Papers. I don't recall any of that advocating free food for all, UBI, free healthcare, etc.
- throwaway-11-1 11mo ago
  when you say 'individual rights', you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to. By the way, don't be so defensive, the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now, your guys won!
  - WalterBright 11mo ago
    > you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to I'll go with "all men" from the Declaration of Independence. > the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now They're being crushed by the government. You cannot make a country wealthy by raising taxes and redistributing the money. > your guys won! I go with the "all men" thang.
    - throwaway-11-1 11mo ago
      were blacks considered men? did it include women? it feels like you're purposely ignoring history Btw ~40% of the people i've met in homeless outreach have full time jobs, taxes are not what's keeping them homeless. In china 90% of the population own their homes, I'm sorry but the all that libertarian shit is such an obvious myth to protect the rich. Every country I've ever visited with more redistributive policies has a substantially better quality of life
      - WalterBright 11mo ago
        > were blacks considered men? Yes. The people who wrote the Constitution were well aware of the conundrum, but were faced with the reality that they could not form a union without allowing the slaveholders to continue. In essence, they kicked the can down the road, which resulted in a catastrophic war. > did it include women? Yes. Whether the word "men" means exclusively men or men and women depends on the context. > taxes are not what's keeping them homeless You're suggesting that taxes don't have effects beyond just paying the money. When a businessman is taxed, for example, that means he has less money to invest in his business, which means fewer jobs, fewer purchases of plant & equipment, slower growth, higher prices, etc., all of which negatively affect the rest of the economy, including poor people. > that libertarian shit is such an obvious myth to protect the rich America's rich people came from poor immigrants. The same for America's middle class. > Every country I've ever visited with more redistributive policies has a substantially better quality of life Have you ever looked at the size of government spending on redistribution? The US abandoned libertarianism in the early 1900s.
    - omikun 11mo ago
      You mean all land owning men or men of sufficient wealth (those who can vote). Certainly not women. In other words, the male elites.
- int_19h 11mo ago
  What do you think patriotism is, if not "community sacrifice"? GP's point is that you are playing fast and loose with words here, so much so that your point doesn't make sense. "Community sacrifice" is a much broader category than those few policies you dislike.
  - WalterBright 11mo ago
    Take a look at the post I originally responded to. It wasn't about patriotism, it was about wealth redistribution.
    - int_19h 11mo ago
      That is true, but your reply generalized far more broadly, and you were rightly called out on that.

by jjk166 11mo ago

WalterBright 11mo ago

The price of freedom is always paid in blood. > This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice. I recommend reading the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and if you really want to get into it, the Federalist Papers. I don't recall any of that advocating free food for all, UBI, free healthcare, etc.

throwaway-11-1 11mo ago
when you say 'individual rights', you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to. By the way, don't be so defensive, the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now, your guys won!
- WalterBright 11mo ago
  > you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to I'll go with "all men" from the Declaration of Independence. > the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now They're being crushed by the government. You cannot make a country wealthy by raising taxes and redistributing the money. > your guys won! I go with the "all men" thang.
  - throwaway-11-1 11mo ago
    were blacks considered men? did it include women? it feels like you're purposely ignoring history Btw ~40% of the people i've met in homeless outreach have full time jobs, taxes are not what's keeping them homeless. In china 90% of the population own their homes, I'm sorry but the all that libertarian shit is such an obvious myth to protect the rich. Every country I've ever visited with more redistributive policies has a substantially better quality of life
    - WalterBright 11mo ago
      > were blacks considered men? Yes. The people who wrote the Constitution were well aware of the conundrum, but were faced with the reality that they could not form a union without allowing the slaveholders to continue. In essence, they kicked the can down the road, which resulted in a catastrophic war. > did it include women? Yes. Whether the word "men" means exclusively men or men and women depends on the context. > taxes are not what's keeping them homeless You're suggesting that taxes don't have effects beyond just paying the money. When a businessman is taxed, for example, that means he has less money to invest in his business, which means fewer jobs, fewer purchases of plant & equipment, slower growth, higher prices, etc., all of which negatively affect the rest of the economy, including poor people. > that libertarian shit is such an obvious myth to protect the rich America's rich people came from poor immigrants. The same for America's middle class. > Every country I've ever visited with more redistributive policies has a substantially better quality of life Have you ever looked at the size of government spending on redistribution? The US abandoned libertarianism in the early 1900s.
  - omikun 11mo ago
    You mean all land owning men or men of sufficient wealth (those who can vote). Certainly not women. In other words, the male elites.
int_19h 11mo ago
What do you think patriotism is, if not "community sacrifice"? GP's point is that you are playing fast and loose with words here, so much so that your point doesn't make sense. "Community sacrifice" is a much broader category than those few policies you dislike.
- WalterBright 11mo ago
  Take a look at the post I originally responded to. It wasn't about patriotism, it was about wealth redistribution.
  - int_19h 11mo ago
    That is true, but your reply generalized far more broadly, and you were rightly called out on that.