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> a moved to pure individualism built around selfishness The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Meanwhile, during the 1

> a moved to pure individualism built around selfishness The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Meanwhile, during the 1800s, scores of millions of people moved up from poverty into the middle class and beyond. (Immigrants to the US arrived with nothing more than a suitcase.) > Funny how we keep forgetting the past and reject what benefited us as a whole Oh the irony!

selimthegrim 1y ago
> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. You clearly didn’t grow up in an immigrant neighborhood in the city
- sdsd 1y ago
  I disagree with Walter here but the US wasn't founded by urban immigrants. There's a difference between pioneers, like the Mennonites in Mexico, and immigrants, like digital nomads in Mexico. The former are almost always more popular than the latter.
  - selimthegrim 1y ago
    Even so, do you think the Mennonites or Mormons in Mexico would agree with no community sacrifice as as part of their narrative?
- WalterBright 1y ago
  I grew up next to the Hispanic neighborhood in Arizona, and the schools I attended were about 30% Hispanic.
sdsd 1y ago
I mildly disagree with your take but it's still mindblowing how I can read some random political flame on HN and it's WALTER FUCKING BRIGHT. Your one of my tech heroes, so cool to spot you on here. If this were real life I'd ask for a selfie to prove that this happened but maybe you could, idk, sign a message with your PGP key so I can prove I interacted with you
- WalterBright 1y ago
  LOL, thanks for the kind words! I just happened to like working on compilers, as few programmers will touch them. If you're ever in the Seattle area, we have a monthly D Coffee Haus where we drink and talk about languages, compilers, airplanes, cars, and physics. All are welcome! (Even C++ people show up! All in good fun.)
ivan_gammel 1y ago
> The US was founded on individual rights Excluding those whose land was stolen and redistributed by government. > not community sacrifice Excluding government-funded infrastructure projects like canals that enabled growth. And support that immigrants received from ethnic communities. > Meanwhile, during the 1800s, scores of millions of people moved up from poverty Yes, fifteen tons, we know that song.
- seizethecheese 1y ago
  This comment is sort of weird. Like you’re finding technically true rebuttals that don’t really refute the high level point.
  - ivan_gammel 1y ago
    The high level point is idealism not grounded in historical facts and probably not worthy spending time and going deeper with criticism, because full rebuttal isn’t some expert knowledge - ChatGPT can do that for you. America of 1800s is everything but libertarian paradise and is not truly exceptional. Industrialization in Europe increased prosperity while building welfare states at the same time.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      Not truly exceptional? Some fun facts: 1. The immigrants came by the boatload from Europe to the US. Not the other way around. The Titanic was built for that purpose. 2. The immigrants were the poor of Europe, not the wealthy. 3. The US middle class and upper middle class and the wealthy came from those poor people. I can't think of any American wealthy families that came from the wealthy of Europe. 4. The height of Americans increased dramatically from 1800 to 1900. This is only possible by plenty of food being available. Visit Fort Henry and look at the uniforms of the 1700s. They look kid sized. 5. The uniforms of Civil War soldiers look teen sized. You can see them for yourself in the Gettysburg museum. 6. In WW1 when the US Army arrived on the scene, the Germans were shocked at their height and high quality plentiful food, and then knew they had lost the war. 7. The US supplied all the Allies in WW2 (including the USSR), provided the shipping fleet to do it, floated two navies, one for the Atlantic and one for the Pacific, and simply buried the Axis under the weight of all the hardware it made. 8. The Wehrmacht relied on horses. 9. The European middle class did not have cars until after WW2. The pre-war US filled the country with Model T's for everybody. 10. My grandfather started out shoveling coal in a steamer (a dirty, rotten job). By the turn of the century, he had his own middle class home, and later a vacation home and a couple cars. America truly is exceptional.
jjk166 1y ago
> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Approximately 25,000 americans gave their lives in the revolutionary war. Every signer of the declaration of independence was signing their own death warrant should they have lost to the strongest military in the world. This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  The price of freedom is always paid in blood. > This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice. I recommend reading the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and if you really want to get into it, the Federalist Papers. I don't recall any of that advocating free food for all, UBI, free healthcare, etc.
  - throwaway-11-1 1y ago
    when you say 'individual rights', you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to. By the way, don't be so defensive, the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now, your guys won!
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      > you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to I'll go with "all men" from the Declaration of Independence. > the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now They're being crushed by the government. You cannot make a country wealthy by raising taxes and redistributing the money. > your guys won! I go with the "all men" thang.
      - throwaway-11-1 1y ago
        were blacks considered men? did it include women? it feels like you're purposely ignoring history Btw ~40% of the people i've met in homeless outreach have full time jobs, taxes are not what's keeping them homeless. In china 90% of the population own their homes, I'm sorry but the all that libertarian shit is such an obvious myth to protect the rich. Every country I've ever visited with more redistributive policies has a substantially better quality of life
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms ... during the 1800s, scores of millions of people moved up from poverty into the middle class and beyond. Woah! The US was founded on occupation and slavery. How do you think millions of people were able to move up out of poverty? Because the US was abundant in land and natural resources, which during the 1800s we stole from the native Americans and exploited in large part with slave labor (at first, later pseudo-enslavement as sharecroppers).
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Yes I know about that theory. But it has problems. When the US was founded, half of the states were slavers, the other half free. Guess which half prospered? The free North! Which stagnated? The slave South. Did you know that the Slave South was unable to supply their troops? They were largely barefoot. The reason they were in Pennsylvania was to raid a shoe factory (but got smashed at Gettysburg instead). Towns and cities and industry sprouted up all over in the free North, not so much in the South. The Civil War resulted in burning the South to the ground. Poof! As for natural resources, why is resource-rich S. America mired in poverty? Why did the Indian nations never industrialize, and remained poor? Why did resource-poor Japan become super rich after being burned to the ground in WW2? Why did resource-rich Russia never become prosperous? Why did zero-resource Taiwan become a wealthy powerhouse? Why is resource rich Africa still stuck in poverty? There is no connection between resource rich and prosperity.
  - omikun 1y ago
    > Did you know that the Slave South was unable to supply their troops? They were largely barefoot. The reason they were in Pennsylvania was to raid a shoe factory (but got smashed at Gettysburg instead). Towns and cities and industry sprouted up all over in the free North, not so much in the South. Guess where the north got their cotton to make those shoes? The south. The textile industries of the north would've never gotten their start without cheap cotton made possible by slavery. > As for natural resources, why is resource-rich S. America mired in poverty? Why did the Indian nations never industrialize, and remained poor? Why did resource-poor Japan become super rich after being burned to the ground in WW2? Why did resource-rich Russia never become prosperous? Why did zero-resource Taiwan become a wealthy powerhouse? Why is resource rich Africa still stuck in poverty? Every South American nation that tried to raise itself out of poverty had their government overthrown or their leader assassinated with the help of good ol' USA. Japan/S. Korea/Taiwan industrialized because USA decided they needed strong allies to counter Russia/China. Check out the grand area plans. Africa was colonized, exported millions of their people to slavery, and is continually destabilized by the west (corporations, world bank, IMF, etc) to perpetuate resource extraction. The poor is kept poor so the rich can get richer. Why is food so plentiful and cheap? Slave labor. Read Tomatoland for a taste. Why are clothes so cheap? People are working for pennies to make those clothes. Why doesn't the iPhone price rise with inflation? There are millions of poor rural Chinese pounding for a chance to work at inhumane conditions for a few dollars a day. You think they make enough to pull their families out of poverty? Nope, it's mostly foreign companies that are reaping the bulk of the profit while continually pressing their costs (labor wages) down.

selimthegrim 1y ago

> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. You clearly didn’t grow up in an immigrant neighborhood in the city

sdsd 1y ago
I disagree with Walter here but the US wasn't founded by urban immigrants. There's a difference between pioneers, like the Mennonites in Mexico, and immigrants, like digital nomads in Mexico. The former are almost always more popular than the latter.
- selimthegrim 1y ago
  Even so, do you think the Mennonites or Mormons in Mexico would agree with no community sacrifice as as part of their narrative?
WalterBright 1y ago
I grew up next to the Hispanic neighborhood in Arizona, and the schools I attended were about 30% Hispanic.

sdsd 1y ago

I mildly disagree with your take but it's still mindblowing how I can read some random political flame on HN and it's WALTER FUCKING BRIGHT. Your one of my tech heroes, so cool to spot you on here. If this were real life I'd ask for a selfie to prove that this happened but maybe you could, idk, sign a message with your PGP key so I can prove I interacted with you

WalterBright 1y ago
LOL, thanks for the kind words! I just happened to like working on compilers, as few programmers will touch them. If you're ever in the Seattle area, we have a monthly D Coffee Haus where we drink and talk about languages, compilers, airplanes, cars, and physics. All are welcome! (Even C++ people show up! All in good fun.)

ivan_gammel 1y ago

> The US was founded on individual rights Excluding those whose land was stolen and redistributed by government. > not community sacrifice Excluding government-funded infrastructure projects like canals that enabled growth. And support that immigrants received from ethnic communities. > Meanwhile, during the 1800s, scores of millions of people moved up from poverty Yes, fifteen tons, we know that song.

seizethecheese 1y ago
This comment is sort of weird. Like you’re finding technically true rebuttals that don’t really refute the high level point.
- ivan_gammel 1y ago
  The high level point is idealism not grounded in historical facts and probably not worthy spending time and going deeper with criticism, because full rebuttal isn’t some expert knowledge - ChatGPT can do that for you. America of 1800s is everything but libertarian paradise and is not truly exceptional. Industrialization in Europe increased prosperity while building welfare states at the same time.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    Not truly exceptional? Some fun facts: 1. The immigrants came by the boatload from Europe to the US. Not the other way around. The Titanic was built for that purpose. 2. The immigrants were the poor of Europe, not the wealthy. 3. The US middle class and upper middle class and the wealthy came from those poor people. I can't think of any American wealthy families that came from the wealthy of Europe. 4. The height of Americans increased dramatically from 1800 to 1900. This is only possible by plenty of food being available. Visit Fort Henry and look at the uniforms of the 1700s. They look kid sized. 5. The uniforms of Civil War soldiers look teen sized. You can see them for yourself in the Gettysburg museum. 6. In WW1 when the US Army arrived on the scene, the Germans were shocked at their height and high quality plentiful food, and then knew they had lost the war. 7. The US supplied all the Allies in WW2 (including the USSR), provided the shipping fleet to do it, floated two navies, one for the Atlantic and one for the Pacific, and simply buried the Axis under the weight of all the hardware it made. 8. The Wehrmacht relied on horses. 9. The European middle class did not have cars until after WW2. The pre-war US filled the country with Model T's for everybody. 10. My grandfather started out shoveling coal in a steamer (a dirty, rotten job). By the turn of the century, he had his own middle class home, and later a vacation home and a couple cars. America truly is exceptional.

jjk166 1y ago

> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms, not community sacrifice. Approximately 25,000 americans gave their lives in the revolutionary war. Every signer of the declaration of independence was signing their own death warrant should they have lost to the strongest military in the world. This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice.

WalterBright 1y ago
The price of freedom is always paid in blood. > This country was 100% founded on community sacrifice. I recommend reading the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and if you really want to get into it, the Federalist Papers. I don't recall any of that advocating free food for all, UBI, free healthcare, etc.
- throwaway-11-1 1y ago
  when you say 'individual rights', you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to. By the way, don't be so defensive, the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now, your guys won!
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > you should be honest about which classes of people that was referring to I'll go with "all men" from the Declaration of Independence. > the working poor are being absolutely crushed by capital right now They're being crushed by the government. You cannot make a country wealthy by raising taxes and redistributing the money. > your guys won! I go with the "all men" thang.
    - throwaway-11-1 1y ago
      were blacks considered men? did it include women? it feels like you're purposely ignoring history Btw ~40% of the people i've met in homeless outreach have full time jobs, taxes are not what's keeping them homeless. In china 90% of the population own their homes, I'm sorry but the all that libertarian shit is such an obvious myth to protect the rich. Every country I've ever visited with more redistributive policies has a substantially better quality of life

insane_dreamer 1y ago

> The US was founded on individual rights and freedoms ... during the 1800s, scores of millions of people moved up from poverty into the middle class and beyond. Woah! The US was founded on occupation and slavery. How do you think millions of people were able to move up out of poverty? Because the US was abundant in land and natural resources, which during the 1800s we stole from the native Americans and exploited in large part with slave labor (at first, later pseudo-enslavement as sharecroppers).

WalterBright 1y ago
Yes I know about that theory. But it has problems. When the US was founded, half of the states were slavers, the other half free. Guess which half prospered? The free North! Which stagnated? The slave South. Did you know that the Slave South was unable to supply their troops? They were largely barefoot. The reason they were in Pennsylvania was to raid a shoe factory (but got smashed at Gettysburg instead). Towns and cities and industry sprouted up all over in the free North, not so much in the South. The Civil War resulted in burning the South to the ground. Poof! As for natural resources, why is resource-rich S. America mired in poverty? Why did the Indian nations never industrialize, and remained poor? Why did resource-poor Japan become super rich after being burned to the ground in WW2? Why did resource-rich Russia never become prosperous? Why did zero-resource Taiwan become a wealthy powerhouse? Why is resource rich Africa still stuck in poverty? There is no connection between resource rich and prosperity.
- omikun 1y ago
  > Did you know that the Slave South was unable to supply their troops? They were largely barefoot. The reason they were in Pennsylvania was to raid a shoe factory (but got smashed at Gettysburg instead). Towns and cities and industry sprouted up all over in the free North, not so much in the South. Guess where the north got their cotton to make those shoes? The south. The textile industries of the north would've never gotten their start without cheap cotton made possible by slavery. > As for natural resources, why is resource-rich S. America mired in poverty? Why did the Indian nations never industrialize, and remained poor? Why did resource-poor Japan become super rich after being burned to the ground in WW2? Why did resource-rich Russia never become prosperous? Why did zero-resource Taiwan become a wealthy powerhouse? Why is resource rich Africa still stuck in poverty? Every South American nation that tried to raise itself out of poverty had their government overthrown or their leader assassinated with the help of good ol' USA. Japan/S. Korea/Taiwan industrialized because USA decided they needed strong allies to counter Russia/China. Check out the grand area plans. Africa was colonized, exported millions of their people to slavery, and is continually destabilized by the west (corporations, world bank, IMF, etc) to perpetuate resource extraction. The poor is kept poor so the rich can get richer. Why is food so plentiful and cheap? Slave labor. Read Tomatoland for a taste. Why are clothes so cheap? People are working for pennies to make those clothes. Why doesn't the iPhone price rise with inflation? There are millions of poor rural Chinese pounding for a chance to work at inhumane conditions for a few dollars a day. You think they make enough to pull their families out of poverty? Nope, it's mostly foreign companies that are reaping the bulk of the profit while continually pressing their costs (labor wages) down.