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The only factual claim in the article: > You know why there are no women in CS programs? Because they see shit like this Citation needed.

tghw 14y ago
The account of Noah's talk is also factual.
chris_wot 14y ago
Bullshit. As the creator of the citation needed tag, I feel the urge to disabuse you of your usage of the phrase. It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. We need more Grace Hoppers. I didn't create the {{fact}} tag all those years ago to be used for crap like this.
- SquareWheel 14y ago
  "It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science." Of course, but that doesn't change the need for a citation of that specific claim. For instance we can observe interests in young children well before they enter our complex world with rampant sexism and bigotry, and even then we see similar patterns: girls aren't as interested in CS. Sexism is still obviously a problem in our industry, I'm not disputing that, but there's nothing wrong with requesting a source when somebody makes a claim. Quoting the citation needed tag is just a whimsical way of stating it, there's no need for personal offense.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Uh you say "of course" (I.e. I know that it's self evident), but then you say you need a citation? Really?
    - SquareWheel 14y ago
      Because it's different to say "women aren't in CS due to sexism" and "sexism turns women off to CS".
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        Fair point. I see where you are coming from and concede that it was reasonable to ask for a citation. My apologies.
- lmm 14y ago
  >It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. No it isn't.
- cousin_it 14y ago
  Your theory predicts that male geeks should also get discouraged by the abuse they receive from jocks and girls in schools and such. But that's not happening. So it looks like your theory is incomplete, or possibly wrong. We need a citation to be sure.
roguecoder 14y ago
Sure: http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generation_stem_what_girls_say.asp http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generat... "Nearly half(47%) of all girls say thatthey would feel uncomfortable being the only girl in a group or class. 57% of all girls say that if they went into a STEM career,they’d have to work harder than a man just to be taken seriously" Or http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim%20Computers%20and%20Education%20(2011).pdf http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim... "Statistical analyses indicated that gender disparities in interest and anticipated success in the stereotypically designed classroom were mediated by women’s lower sense of belonging in that environment." Next time, do your own homework.
- cousin_it 14y ago
  Note that if fewer women participate in STEM fields for any reason at all, they will report lower feelings of belonging as a result.

tghw 14y ago

The account of Noah's talk is also factual.

chris_wot 14y ago

Bullshit. As the creator of the citation needed tag, I feel the urge to disabuse you of your usage of the phrase. It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. We need more Grace Hoppers. I didn't create the {{fact}} tag all those years ago to be used for crap like this.

SquareWheel 14y ago
"It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science." Of course, but that doesn't change the need for a citation of that specific claim. For instance we can observe interests in young children well before they enter our complex world with rampant sexism and bigotry, and even then we see similar patterns: girls aren't as interested in CS. Sexism is still obviously a problem in our industry, I'm not disputing that, but there's nothing wrong with requesting a source when somebody makes a claim. Quoting the citation needed tag is just a whimsical way of stating it, there's no need for personal offense.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Uh you say "of course" (I.e. I know that it's self evident), but then you say you need a citation? Really?
  - SquareWheel 14y ago
    Because it's different to say "women aren't in CS due to sexism" and "sexism turns women off to CS".
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Fair point. I see where you are coming from and concede that it was reasonable to ask for a citation. My apologies.
lmm 14y ago
>It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. No it isn't.
cousin_it 14y ago
Your theory predicts that male geeks should also get discouraged by the abuse they receive from jocks and girls in schools and such. But that's not happening. So it looks like your theory is incomplete, or possibly wrong. We need a citation to be sure.

roguecoder 14y ago

Sure: http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generation_stem_what_girls_say.asp http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generat... "Nearly half(47%) of all girls say thatthey would feel uncomfortable being the only girl in a group or class. 57% of all girls say that if they went into a STEM career,they’d have to work harder than a man just to be taken seriously" Or http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim%20Computers%20and%20Education%20(2011).pdf http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim... "Statistical analyses indicated that gender disparities in interest and anticipated success in the stereotypically designed classroom were mediated by women’s lower sense of belonging in that environment." Next time, do your own homework.

cousin_it 14y ago
Note that if fewer women participate in STEM fields for any reason at all, they will report lower feelings of belonging as a result.