5 ms·

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism. But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for male beauty, than our own. That turned out not to be quite true, of course, as demonstrated by what they did to Wilde himself. But it's still a fantastic novel.

deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
stevekemp 11mo ago
It is a good read, even now. I read it for the first time in my early 20s, and reason I read it was because when I was about 11 years old I saw an old black and white movie of it, and I had nightmares for quite some time (over the ending/fire). It wasn't the only film to give me nightmares as a child, but it was definitely the first! For me it is one of those books I re-read every few years, along with LotR, Amber chronicles, the Dune series, etc.
inglor_cz 11mo ago
The fates of Wilde and Turing are two big black stains on the history of the UK (not the only ones, of course). Turing even more, as by 1950, the society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal.
- vlovich123 11mo ago
  I think you meant to say their treatment was two big black stains. A bit awkwardly worded implying the men themselves were the stains.
  - inglor_cz 11mo ago
    Thanks. I fixed that. I am not a native speaker and I sometimes fall into such traps, but this I could have seen.
- KaiserPro 11mo ago
  > society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal. I'm not actually sure it was an entirely religious thing. It seems like it was an amendment tacked onto a bill that would protect girls from sexual exploitation by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment The conflation of sex and religion I think its probably a mistake in this instance.
  - inglor_cz 11mo ago
    I am not really well-versed in British legal history. I was under the impression that the original Buggery Act was motivated religiously, and that Wilde was prosecuted under that Act (maybe amended).
wolfi1 11mo ago
I always wondered what trait was left on the picture when Dorian Gray considered converting to Catholicism
retrac 11mo ago
> But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for male beauty, than our own. This might not be an entirely faulty perception. Wilde was, I think, aiming for plausible deniability. To hide the homoeroticism amidst the pretense of merely intense platonic love. Because in that time such expressions were often permissible. I've seen the theory phrased a few ways but here's one take. In sufficiently homophobic societies, the possibility that a man doing something we would perceive as homoerotic, is himself gay, is close to zero. Because no one would ever risk exposure. And so expression of non-sexual intimacies we would see as gay are not perceived as gay in those societies. We see this shift in the recent literary tendency to "queer" platonic male relationships in historical literature. To use a slightly absurd example: are Sam and Frodo in the Lord of the Rings gay? It has been argued by some. (Put "Are Sam and Frodo" into Google and see what pops up on autocomplete to finish that question!) I think it is the romantic (in the 19th century Wagnerian sense) and conservative worldview of Tolkien in action: the nature of the relationship is that of comrades-in-arms. And in that context certain intimacies that would be intolerable are otherwise not. That is why Sam says that he loves Frodo. Another example the modern audience often just can't get over, is men who used to sleep together. In the most literal sense of the word. Platonic bed mates. Some guys did this even when other beds were available. Maybe they were cold. But maybe they were just lonely? if some women put on pajamas and have a movie-watching slumber party they probably won't get called lesbians. But men must tread carefully today at least in America for that kind of thing. There is just some mental block in our society with that kind of intimacy between two men. But perhaps not back then. (Or maybe Abraham Lincoln really was gay. But I kind of doubt it.) Wilde is right on the transition point when it started to be conceivable that a man is actually a self-identifying homosexual and that male intimacy might therefore be coded as homosexual. He played with that ambiguity. And in his case, got burned.
- Insanity 11mo ago
  Why is your example absurd? I read LoTR and definitely had the sense that Sam & Frodo were gay. I actually thought the hollywood version sanitized this away entirely and assumed it was because it'd be 'too controversial' at the time the films were made.
amiga386 11mo ago
You should read the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde as a follow up. The original inspiration for it was Stevenson hearing about respectable pillar of Edinburgh society, William Brodie, being caught as a burglar, stealing to repay his gambling debts. Your social capital in Victorian Britain was based around your outward appearance of respectability and had to be defended to the utmost. If you were outed as a criminal, or as a homosexual, you'd lose every shred of privilege and position. With that in mind, you can imagine the duality of Dr Jekyll trying to maintain his good standing while licentious Mr Hyde wants to engage in hijinks? One such reading of the novella: https://sci-hub.st/10.1525/lal.2012.24.1.21 https://sci-hub.st/10.1525/lal.2012.24.1.21
paulddraper 11mo ago
Huh, this is first time I am learning that too. Goes to show that some themes of the human condition can be appreciated without being on the nose.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

stevekemp 11mo ago

It is a good read, even now. I read it for the first time in my early 20s, and reason I read it was because when I was about 11 years old I saw an old black and white movie of it, and I had nightmares for quite some time (over the ending/fire). It wasn't the only film to give me nightmares as a child, but it was definitely the first! For me it is one of those books I re-read every few years, along with LotR, Amber chronicles, the Dune series, etc.

inglor_cz 11mo ago

The fates of Wilde and Turing are two big black stains on the history of the UK (not the only ones, of course). Turing even more, as by 1950, the society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal.

vlovich123 11mo ago
I think you meant to say their treatment was two big black stains. A bit awkwardly worded implying the men themselves were the stains.
- inglor_cz 11mo ago
  Thanks. I fixed that. I am not a native speaker and I sometimes fall into such traps, but this I could have seen.
KaiserPro 11mo ago
> society was much less religious overall and there was less reason to keep homosexuality illegal. I'm not actually sure it was an entirely religious thing. It seems like it was an amendment tacked onto a bill that would protect girls from sexual exploitation by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Labouch%C3%A8re specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labouch%C3%A8re_Amendment The conflation of sex and religion I think its probably a mistake in this instance.
- inglor_cz 11mo ago
  I am not really well-versed in British legal history. I was under the impression that the original Buggery Act was motivated religiously, and that Wilde was prosecuted under that Act (maybe amended).

wolfi1 11mo ago

I always wondered what trait was left on the picture when Dorian Gray considered converting to Catholicism

retrac 11mo ago

> But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for male beauty, than our own. This might not be an entirely faulty perception. Wilde was, I think, aiming for plausible deniability. To hide the homoeroticism amidst the pretense of merely intense platonic love. Because in that time such expressions were often permissible. I've seen the theory phrased a few ways but here's one take. In sufficiently homophobic societies, the possibility that a man doing something we would perceive as homoerotic, is himself gay, is close to zero. Because no one would ever risk exposure. And so expression of non-sexual intimacies we would see as gay are not perceived as gay in those societies. We see this shift in the recent literary tendency to "queer" platonic male relationships in historical literature. To use a slightly absurd example: are Sam and Frodo in the Lord of the Rings gay? It has been argued by some. (Put "Are Sam and Frodo" into Google and see what pops up on autocomplete to finish that question!) I think it is the romantic (in the 19th century Wagnerian sense) and conservative worldview of Tolkien in action: the nature of the relationship is that of comrades-in-arms. And in that context certain intimacies that would be intolerable are otherwise not. That is why Sam says that he loves Frodo. Another example the modern audience often just can't get over, is men who used to sleep together. In the most literal sense of the word. Platonic bed mates. Some guys did this even when other beds were available. Maybe they were cold. But maybe they were just lonely? if some women put on pajamas and have a movie-watching slumber party they probably won't get called lesbians. But men must tread carefully today at least in America for that kind of thing. There is just some mental block in our society with that kind of intimacy between two men. But perhaps not back then. (Or maybe Abraham Lincoln really was gay. But I kind of doubt it.) Wilde is right on the transition point when it started to be conceivable that a man is actually a self-identifying homosexual and that male intimacy might therefore be coded as homosexual. He played with that ambiguity. And in his case, got burned.

Insanity 11mo ago
Why is your example absurd? I read LoTR and definitely had the sense that Sam & Frodo were gay. I actually thought the hollywood version sanitized this away entirely and assumed it was because it'd be 'too controversial' at the time the films were made.

amiga386 11mo ago

You should read the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde as a follow up. The original inspiration for it was Stevenson hearing about respectable pillar of Edinburgh society, William Brodie, being caught as a burglar, stealing to repay his gambling debts. Your social capital in Victorian Britain was based around your outward appearance of respectability and had to be defended to the utmost. If you were outed as a criminal, or as a homosexual, you'd lose every shred of privilege and position. With that in mind, you can imagine the duality of Dr Jekyll trying to maintain his good standing while licentious Mr Hyde wants to engage in hijinks? One such reading of the novella: https://sci-hub.st/10.1525/lal.2012.24.1.21 https://sci-hub.st/10.1525/lal.2012.24.1.21

paulddraper 11mo ago

Huh, this is first time I am learning that too. Goes to show that some themes of the human condition can be appreciated without being on the nose.