9 ms·

Seriously?

124 points by tghw 14y ago

cousin_it 14y ago
The only factual claim in the article: > You know why there are no women in CS programs? Because they see shit like this Citation needed.
- tghw 14y ago
  The account of Noah's talk is also factual.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Bullshit. As the creator of the citation needed tag, I feel the urge to disabuse you of your usage of the phrase. It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. We need more Grace Hoppers. I didn't create the {{fact}} tag all those years ago to be used for crap like this.
  - SquareWheel 14y ago
    "It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science." Of course, but that doesn't change the need for a citation of that specific claim. For instance we can observe interests in young children well before they enter our complex world with rampant sexism and bigotry, and even then we see similar patterns: girls aren't as interested in CS. Sexism is still obviously a problem in our industry, I'm not disputing that, but there's nothing wrong with requesting a source when somebody makes a claim. Quoting the citation needed tag is just a whimsical way of stating it, there's no need for personal offense.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Uh you say "of course" (I.e. I know that it's self evident), but then you say you need a citation? Really?
      - SquareWheel 14y ago
        Because it's different to say "women aren't in CS due to sexism" and "sexism turns women off to CS".
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Fair point. I see where you are coming from and concede that it was reasonable to ask for a citation. My apologies.
  - lmm 14y ago
    >It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. No it isn't.
  - cousin_it 14y ago
    Your theory predicts that male geeks should also get discouraged by the abuse they receive from jocks and girls in schools and such. But that's not happening. So it looks like your theory is incomplete, or possibly wrong. We need a citation to be sure.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Sure: http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generation_stem_what_girls_say.asp http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generat... "Nearly half(47%) of all girls say thatthey would feel uncomfortable being the only girl in a group or class. 57% of all girls say that if they went into a STEM career,they’d have to work harder than a man just to be taken seriously" Or http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim%20Computers%20and%20Education%20(2011).pdf http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim... "Statistical analyses indicated that gender disparities in interest and anticipated success in the stereotypically designed classroom were mediated by women’s lower sense of belonging in that environment." Next time, do your own homework.
  - cousin_it 14y ago
    Note that if fewer women participate in STEM fields for any reason at all, they will report lower feelings of belonging as a result.
cheez 14y ago
Get over it. Life is too short to spend bitching about little things like this. If you really think this is the cause of lack of women in CS, you've never raised a woman. Here's a hint: it ain't the men.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  I have a 4.5 year old girl. I'm 100% certain that I want her to pursue a career in IT, if that is what she desires. Hopefully by the time she's old enough she not only won't have to deal with the sort of misogynistic crap like the one pointed out in the article, but the sort of "get over it" responses that encourage this sort of rubbish. P.S. What sort of stupid comment is "you've never raised a woman"? What, you can only be upset about sexism if you've had children? Or, for that matter, have a daughter? That there is someone voting you up is a real shame.
  - catshirt 14y ago
    "P.S. What sort of stupid comment is "you've never raised a woman"? What, you can only be upset about sexism if you've had children? Or, for that matter, have a daughter?" it looks to be the sort of comment whose context was discarded and ignored so you have something to get angry about.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      How the heck is what I've quoted removed from its context? He stated that "If you really think this is the cause of lack of women in CS, you've never raised a woman." In other words, he's saying that you can't comment on this if you've never had a daughter to raise. How else do you interpret that? In fact, that's exactly what I'm annoyed about. I've not taken him out of context. I'll thank you not to tell me I have. It is very stupid to say you can't comment on hostility to one segment of the population will disuade many of thos people from taking up IT or Computer Sciense just because you are not part of that population, or that you would have had to be a parent of one of those people. edit: as has been pointed out by sp332 (I can't reply), it appears I have indeed being following through a logical fallacy. I am in the process of "raising a woman", so regardless if my fallacious reasoning about what I thought of the original comment, the proposition still proves to be false :-)
debacle 14y ago
This trends is so fucking old that it's growing hair out of its ears. 1. Some idiot (a confirmed idiot, in this instance) says something potentially offensive depending on your panty bunching quotient. 2. Someone decries said idiot, flips tables, talks about how the industry needs to change, and can't believe others aren't as outraged as they are. 3. Everyone has their own opinion, and the discourse on HN is relatively polite, but there's also a ton of shadowy downvotes for rational comments that don't seem all that inflammatory. Here's the reality - idiots say stupid things. Whether it's denigratory to women, men, blacks, Asians, the mentally challenged, furries, or yes even redditors, it will get said. There's no point getting your feathers all ruffled over something like this - I assume it's not a common sentiment among the people who don't get fired from Facebook, and there's plenty of self-aggrandizing idiots out there to give the outragist fodder to the end of days. Finally, this is just silly: > start thinking of computing as a professional discipline, instead of a boy’s club. Computing is neither a professional discipline nor a boys club. Historically, it's been a sausage fest, and computing will never be a professional discipline so long as there are people out there willing to write PHP for fifteen dollars an hour and engineers are put out to pasture at 35.
- tghw 14y ago
  Idiots do say stupid things. But just shrugging it off as Yet Another Idiot does not improve the situation. People getting their "feathers all ruffled" is how we can show that this sort of behavior is not acceptable and should not be supported. Computing may be a sausage fest, but there's no reason we can't change that and there's no reason we can't aspire to being a professional discipline.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Computing is neither a professional discipline nor a boys club. Historically, it's been a sausage fest, and computing will never be a professional discipline so long as there are people out there willing to write PHP for fifteen dollars an hour and engineers are put out to pasture at 35. Aside from the fact that PHP, while I personally would never use it, can and has been used to write scalable software, computing is more than just a few poor coders. It's a bit like saying that being a doctor can't be considered a profession because there are homeopaths. Your argument is neither convincing or logical.
condensor 14y ago
Not again this. It started like a good summary of a conference I'd love to attend to but then it became the usual drama blog post. "Look, someone said something stupid. Let's call out the whole community for that. Because white males are literary Hitler or worse." Yes, there are jerks. It's time to get over it.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  It's got nothing to do with being a white male. That a white male said it is incidental. In fact it wasn't even mentioned in the article. As a white male, however, I'd like to say to other white males (and everyone else) - cut out the bullshit sexism in your tech talk. I didn't come for your ridiculous views on women when I go to these talks. I care about tech. Your sexist views detract from your message, and I'll consider you a moron if you think sexist jokes are funny.
andrewcooke 14y ago
ok, confused and completely out of the loop here, so apologies in advance - i guess this is going to be either "how could he think that?" or "how can he not know that?". but the 3 p thing. is it supposed to be "penises"? [edit: huh. so now here's a clear case where number of votes visible would be a useful feature in HN! my guess is that "pussy" was what was intended (or misunderstood), in the context of the post.] [edit to clarify the previous edit: there used to be two replies; one for "penis" and one for "pussy"] [also, to explain how i didn't get this, i'm a uk english speaker, who left the country some 20 years ago, so "pussy" isn't really part of my vernacular - i think back then, at least, it was an american word.]
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Pussy. Incidentally, I'm just answering the question. The one speaking the original sentence I don't have much time for.
- deleted 14y ago
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- deleted 14y ago
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phaylon 14y ago
There are seven comments here. One says "There's no point getting your feathers all ruffled over something like this" and two(!) say "Get over it". That's the reason I keep upvoting these things here. HN seems to be one of the places that really could use more exposure to this.
citricsquid 14y ago
At this point if someone doesn't post a blog post about Noah Kagan being sexist at least once a week he'll have to have died.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  In that case, people should stop asking him to their conferences to speak. Conferences about IT are not forums for stand up comedians. Besides which, people like Eddie Murphy or Sarah Silverman do offensive comedy better.
RyanMcGreal 14y ago
I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software is out in force on Hacker News: * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just idiots being idiots. * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just jerks being jerks. * Dismissive pedantry over the claim that women are deterred from software by incidents of sexism. * Blaming women themselves for not going into software. And all of it laced with blithe stereotyping language ("panty bunching equivalent", "bitching", "drama" and so on). This predictably depressing reaction hasn't been good enough for a long time. The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it.
- debacle 14y ago
  > The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face. Yes, I agree completely. The reason is entirely clear - from a young age, boys are marketed to in an entirely different fashion than girls, parents gently nudge their daughters into more passive roles, and the types of toys that are available for girls that don't reinforce social stereotypes suck in a fashion that I don't think I can explain to someone who isn't raising a daughter. Lego has finally released some Legos (yeah, I pluralize it) that appeal to girls, and while some of them are lame (a hair salon, for example), others are cool, but the vast overwhelming acreage of the girls' half of any given toy store is filled with pink dolls, barbies, kitchen sets, crap to do with your hair, and the the type of half-assed girl versions of boy toys that make a responsible parent want to burn the place down.
  - btilly 14y ago
    I agree with you that those toys and that marketing sucks, but I disagree that it is entirely clear that the toys and marketing are the cause of the problem. Let me offer an example. I have a pair of friends who are both PhDs in CS, and both work at Google. They have a daughter whom both parents would love to see in engineering. The mom has the following story of when she gave up trying to resist her daughter's inclinations to make everything pretty instead of wanting to build stuff. Mom left her daughter to play with a box of regular legos for a bit hoping that she would try to build something. When she came back a few minutes later, every green lego was out and a smattering of others scattered over the floor. Her daughter looked up with a big smile and announced, "Look! Here is my lawn, and these are the pretty flowers!" I have watched this with my own daughter. First, let's be clear, we do not have a TV in our house and she does not see most of that marketing. But everything "girly" that she's been exposed to, she wants. Why? My best guess is that she's keenly aware that she's a girl, she's not a boy, and she actively seeks out clues as to how to not be a boy. At preschool she gets exposed to the idea of what girls play with, and she's happy to go along. That is in her case it isn't a push from the external environment to be that way. It is a pull from within herself to figure out how to conform. Whatever the cause, the extreme girl toys you hate are in the store because they sell. The marketing that you hate is done because it works.
dexen 14y ago
Linkbait -> flagged. It's merely another ``There is misogyny in CS, we gotta do something''. Lacking in OP: - hard facts how it impacts us, - useful proposals, - *any* insight.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Here's a "hard fact". There are a lack of women in IT. Here's a useful proposal - stop making sexist comments in your talks. The above I hope you can take as insight.
  - chikakicks 14y ago
    So what if there is a lack of women in IT? There is a lack of men in Human Resources and child care. Why is it an issue? Why does our society need to be specially engineered to reflect demographics in some industries and not in other. Having said that, I don't believe such remarks should have a place in any professional conference.
    - regularfry 14y ago
      It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop, and because the reason half of those with the intellectual potential aren't interested is downright insulting. There's also research to say mixed gender teams perform better along some axes, but that's peanuts next to the numbers game.
    - sp332 14y ago
      It's not about "society" it's about IT. I don't have a moral reason to make all genders equal or whatever. I just want more women in IT because A) we need more people in IT in general and B) women have different kinds of interests, influences, and experiences in our society and it would be good to add those to our collective problem-solving pool.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      I disagree that there aren't enough people in IT. What I makes me annoyed is that there are many, many talented women who could be in IT or CS but who don't participate because of sexism or hostility in the workplace ecause of their gender. It's not a matter of "lighten up". It's a matter of "stop being sexist and hostil to women". The onus is not on the victim to change her behaviour, but rather very much on the transgressors!
danso 14y ago
I have nothing to add to this other than what "The Real Katie" said in "Lighten Up" http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ >> Every time I spoke up about the above crap, I got some sympathy, but I also got some guy who didn't understand what the big deal was. If I wasn't in the middle of being raped or beaten or threatened or fired, guess what I needed to do? Lighten up. How long would you put up with it? Do you love anything that much? If your spouse subtly treated you like crap every day, how long would your marriage last? If you saw a friend being treated this way by their boss, wouldn't you tell them to quit? Or would you tell them to lighten up? You, person who told me to lighten up, saw one little thing. It didn't seem like a big deal, did it? One little line! One joke! One comment! But it's not just one thing to me: it's one of thousands that I've had to endure since I was old enough to be told that 'X is for boys!' It's probably not even the first thing I've had to deal with that day, unless you've gotten to me pretty early. That's the main problem with subtle discrimination. It leaves those that it affects the most powerless against it, quietly discouraging them. If they speak up, they're treated to eye rolls at the least, and at the worst, are called oppressors themselves. We're accused of not wanting equal rights, but of wanting tyranny.
- gacba 14y ago
  This is not Noah's first transgression in a similar vein: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-bitch-slide/ http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-b... While I support Noah's right to say what he wants to say in the US, I do believe that his attention-grabbing tactics are in extreme poor taste and future conferences should take heed that this is what they might be signing up for by getting him as a speaker. Noah seems to be an otherwise smart guy and an excellent businessman. I'm sad that he seems somewhat obtuse to this behavior as inappropriate.
- kevin_06s 14y ago
  The "Lighten Up" situation is quite different in that there was an identifiable victim of the sexism who suffered concrete consequences such as being forced to attend an HR meeting. "Every woman in CS" is too broad to establish an identifiable victim and "this makes me angry" is not a concrete consequence.
spindritf 14y ago
So out of a profanity-laced presentation with embarrassing audience tricks what really got the author was saying that entrepreneurs may be motivated by money, (helping?) people and -- gasp! -- sex? The guy even went back to be more politically correct and explicitly included women and gays. How much bad will does it take to interpret that, fairly biologically obvious, remark in some twisted way to mean "women are not people"?
- ReadEvalPost 14y ago
  People, profits, and women would indicate the set "People" and set "Women" are disjoint.
  - spindritf 14y ago
    No, it doesn't because "people" probably means users or customers or maybe your team, and "women" is a substitute for "pussy" which means people you want to have sex with. It would actually be ethically questionable for those sets not to be disjoint.
    - ReadEvalPost 14y ago
      "women" is a substitute for "pussy" which means people you want to have sex with. Right. Pussy as shorthand for sex is problematic because it reduces a woman to her sexual organs, it objectifies them. Would you enjoy being reduced to your penis? That he's using women as substitute for "pussy" and that his phrasing juxtaposes them with "people" (even though that wasn't the intent, I agree) only highlights the problem further. I understand what he was trying to convey, but that doesn't excuse the wording and the attitude it reveals.
      - funkwyrm 14y ago
        I disagree, IMHO Pussy as a shorthand for sex reduces SEX to the sexual organs. Not the woman, the sex act. That may be unenlightened (we know sex can be so much more!) but not necessarily anti-woman.
tubbo 14y ago
What was the talk even about?
jenius 14y ago
There are between 1 and 3 posts that say quite literally the EXACT same thing as this post that end up on the front page of hacker news every week, and frankly it's starting to wear thin. As @debacle said, this is becoming a really old and ridiculous trend. Let's stop making parrot posts about this issue and make posts about what you can actually do about it. It's one thing to complain about injustice, but once there are hundreds of people complaining about injustice and not a SINGLE person so much as proposing anything we could possibly do about it, it becomes a waste of time. Everyone knows that many people think there is a problem. Continuing to state this over and over is stupid. Propose a solution instead.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  One of the things we can do about it is highlight incidents so that there is pressure to change. Do people complain when yet another post about a bunch of badly-hashed passwords getting hacked pops up? Nope, because those posts are the best way to convince people to properly hash passwords. As for what to do about it, step one: don't use this kind of crap in your own presentations. Step two: if you see someone else doing so, protest. Step three: go out of your way to read works by women, listen to women speak and otherwise diversify your professional environment. There are at least as many posts made about things to do about this. Check out the Ada Initiative, for example. However, if you read through the comments on this article and every other you'll probably notice that many people don't think there is a problem. When solutions are proposed, as they often are, they are routinely ignored because people are unwilling to accept that this behavior is a problem, is a pattern or is part of a broader social dynamic. It is not just about shaming individuals; it is about addressing the underlying assumptions that developers are male, women are the sexual objects developers desire and it is somehow hilarious to point this out. That is impossible until people do, as you do, accept that it is a systematic issue and not an isolated incident that should be ignored. Have some patience for the people who are slightly slower; when they all come around, there won't be any more of these to post here, much less one a week.
rjzzleep 14y ago
really? i thought women get extra cakes in software roundabouts just because theyre women. and the dev geeks are usually to shy to say anything bad too. it's time we stop this annoying let's treat women the same crap. we're not, when was the last time you saw someone treat a coworker better because he was a good looking chap? now, when's the last time you or someone else treated a good looking girl better, just because she was a good looking girl? besides, how many times did you see a banker get hired with long hair and beard without suit? as for this part: "We’re better than this. Act like it. Treat your fellow developers with the same respect you’d treat someone you met on the street: basic, common courtesy. It’s not exactly asking a lot, so quit making it seem so hard to attain." if you really treat your fellow developers like you treat people on the street, maybe you should rethink the way you treat people on the street. i treat people by merit, and they get an extra bonus when theyre a good looking lady. but when i see some moron being in a good position just because she's a good looking girl, you can bet ill treat her the way she deserves. when you want sometime you have to make sacrifices. I didn't exactly get my programming knowledge handed to me on a silver platter. my taekwondo teach had to beg his master for some of his knowledge. I can tell you plenty of stories about this. you want something, you have to show that you really want it. and no i'm not talking about sex, or sexism. You asking for free labour. as for you yourself, you want an extra cake. you want to be able to spew your feminist nonsense and then expect everyone else to speak in politically correct terms. you know what the meaning of the word tolerance is? it means to tolerate ones opinion even though you might not like it. it doesn't mean that you have to subdue to someone elses ideals just in order for them to become happy. you got that part wrong. now I don't like your attitude, but I tolerate it. here's some food for thought. i've said a million times and i will keep repeating it. a lot of really awesome software that might strike you as not so good business, but is actually much more successful than the most valuable companies was built by hotheaded people, that didn't always treat each other in the best language possible. Now here's the part you don't get: How can a bunch of people that don't really like each other build awesome stuff TOGETHER? because of respect. They respect each others opinions, they respect each others work, they might not like each other by they respect each other. This respect is merit based. The kind of respect you're talking about is not respect. It's social conventions that you made up in your mind with your friends. It holds no real value, it creates nothing. by the way, even if you don't accept it, you have the same evolutionary traits as anyone else. men need someone to reproduce with, women need someone to protect them. the funny part is, most of us will never even notice.
funkwyrm 14y ago
Without being there, I can't be sure, but the way the OP describes this appears to miss the point. The way I interpret that sentence, using the very little context supplied, is profits, people, and sex yaknow, sex with women, men, whatever remember that song from the 90s opp = other people's "privates | p | p" or whatever you want "P" to stand for. Without more context, that's exactly what I get from that, nothing anti-women whatsoever.
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  And I guess as a guy, you're eminently qualified to determine what is and isn't insulting to women?
  - wonderzombie 14y ago
    Downvotes? Ha! It's true, though, isn't it? I mean, is a Java developer qualified to critique a reasonably large C++ application? Not really, no. You can try, but there are idioms, pitfalls, and such that you just won't pick up on. So why do we tolerate the same behavior when it comes to men's experiences vs. women's experiences? This isn't all that complicated. You didn't live the last N years of your life as a woman. You can try to reason about it. Maybe you'll come close. But you just don't have the experience.
jplewicke 14y ago
In case anyone is wondering about Noah Kagan's past sexist behavior at conferences, http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-bitch-slide/ http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-b... and http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2749858 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2749858 is another example. I'm really not sure why he's being invited to speak if he still hasn't learned to be so misogynistic.
- debacle 14y ago
  Conferences need to fill their rosters, and if that means scraping the bottom of the barrel then so be it.
gadders 14y ago
I wonder if on the HRNews.com website, women there are decrying the absence of men in HR? Sexism is bad, and should be exterminated, but I can't help thinking that, just maybe, some jobs appeal to some sexes more than others (in the aggregate. I realise there are individual exceptions).
thebigshane 14y ago
I have such mixed feelings about this being on HN. Yes, I think we should read it and learn from it. I absolutely agree with the author. It's one of those things I wish everyone knew but for some reason there are still people who don't, so maybe showing up on the front page every once and a while is a good reminder. But the comments should be turned off. This is such a heated topic and are there aren't any right answers to this problem besides "keep it in mind, don't do what they did". What can possibly be discussed here besides emotional bickering from both sides. It does not seem productive and is not interesting conversation.
Claudus 14y ago
I guess there are articles / threads like this discussing sexism directed at men in female dominated professions too. http://ajnoffthecharts.com/2009/06/16/do-male-nurses-face-reverse-sexism/ http://ajnoffthecharts.com/2009/06/16/do-male-nurses-face-re... The 2004 federal survey of the RN population found that only 5.8% of RNs were men. This results from the profession’s use of caring philosophies that perpetuate the stereotype of women being more caring than men, as well as from the use of language that isn’t gender neutral and the failure to recruit men. http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/sexism-nursing-male-25956.html http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/sexism-nursi... As a male in nursing, I feel that I am sometimes treated differently because of my gender. I believe that I am expected to carry a heavier patient load with less assistance from my female coworkers.
MattRogish 14y ago
For what it's worth: Mark Littlewood, one of the Business of Software organizers, apologized to the group and took responsibility. I don't have the transcript but he didn't think the comment/talk was motivated by sexism.
annableker 14y ago
In my experience, a lot of boys have acted that way towards me because they've honestly never met a woman who can code. It takes a little bit before they warm up to that fact. After a while, if they're still being a dick, I'll just go somewhere else and find people to work with that aren't egocentric and dumb. That's one of the reasons why working with my brother is so awesome--he knows me well and doesn't assume I'm a "non-computer-person". GIRLS DO THIS TOO. Some girls also assume that girls are less technically inclined. My whole life, I've just had to keep on going and showing people what I'm capable of. Since I'm a white girl who likes wearing dresses, people don't expect it, but they find out soon enough.

124 points by tghw 14y ago

The only factual claim in the article: > You know why there are no women in CS programs? Because they see shit like this Citation needed.

tghw 14y ago
The account of Noah's talk is also factual.
chris_wot 14y ago
Bullshit. As the creator of the citation needed tag, I feel the urge to disabuse you of your usage of the phrase. It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. We need more Grace Hoppers. I didn't create the {{fact}} tag all those years ago to be used for crap like this.
- SquareWheel 14y ago
  "It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science." Of course, but that doesn't change the need for a citation of that specific claim. For instance we can observe interests in young children well before they enter our complex world with rampant sexism and bigotry, and even then we see similar patterns: girls aren't as interested in CS. Sexism is still obviously a problem in our industry, I'm not disputing that, but there's nothing wrong with requesting a source when somebody makes a claim. Quoting the citation needed tag is just a whimsical way of stating it, there's no need for personal offense.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Uh you say "of course" (I.e. I know that it's self evident), but then you say you need a citation? Really?
    - SquareWheel 14y ago
      Because it's different to say "women aren't in CS due to sexism" and "sexism turns women off to CS".
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        Fair point. I see where you are coming from and concede that it was reasonable to ask for a citation. My apologies.
- lmm 14y ago
  >It's self evident that if you are offensive towards women, it's less likely they will participate in IT or Computer Science. No it isn't.
- cousin_it 14y ago
  Your theory predicts that male geeks should also get discouraged by the abuse they receive from jocks and girls in schools and such. But that's not happening. So it looks like your theory is incomplete, or possibly wrong. We need a citation to be sure.
roguecoder 14y ago
Sure: http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generation_stem_what_girls_say.asp http://www.girlscouts.org/research/publications/stem/generat... "Nearly half(47%) of all girls say thatthey would feel uncomfortable being the only girl in a group or class. 57% of all girls say that if they went into a STEM career,they’d have to work harder than a man just to be taken seriously" Or http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim%20Computers%20and%20Education%20(2011).pdf http://ilabs.uw.edu/sites/default/files/Cheryan_Meltzoff_Kim... "Statistical analyses indicated that gender disparities in interest and anticipated success in the stereotypically designed classroom were mediated by women’s lower sense of belonging in that environment." Next time, do your own homework.
- cousin_it 14y ago
  Note that if fewer women participate in STEM fields for any reason at all, they will report lower feelings of belonging as a result.

cheez 14y ago

Get over it. Life is too short to spend bitching about little things like this. If you really think this is the cause of lack of women in CS, you've never raised a woman. Here's a hint: it ain't the men.

chris_wot 14y ago
I have a 4.5 year old girl. I'm 100% certain that I want her to pursue a career in IT, if that is what she desires. Hopefully by the time she's old enough she not only won't have to deal with the sort of misogynistic crap like the one pointed out in the article, but the sort of "get over it" responses that encourage this sort of rubbish. P.S. What sort of stupid comment is "you've never raised a woman"? What, you can only be upset about sexism if you've had children? Or, for that matter, have a daughter? That there is someone voting you up is a real shame.
- catshirt 14y ago
  "P.S. What sort of stupid comment is "you've never raised a woman"? What, you can only be upset about sexism if you've had children? Or, for that matter, have a daughter?" it looks to be the sort of comment whose context was discarded and ignored so you have something to get angry about.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    How the heck is what I've quoted removed from its context? He stated that "If you really think this is the cause of lack of women in CS, you've never raised a woman." In other words, he's saying that you can't comment on this if you've never had a daughter to raise. How else do you interpret that? In fact, that's exactly what I'm annoyed about. I've not taken him out of context. I'll thank you not to tell me I have. It is very stupid to say you can't comment on hostility to one segment of the population will disuade many of thos people from taking up IT or Computer Sciense just because you are not part of that population, or that you would have had to be a parent of one of those people. edit: as has been pointed out by sp332 (I can't reply), it appears I have indeed being following through a logical fallacy. I am in the process of "raising a woman", so regardless if my fallacious reasoning about what I thought of the original comment, the proposition still proves to be false :-)

debacle 14y ago

This trends is so fucking old that it's growing hair out of its ears. 1. Some idiot (a confirmed idiot, in this instance) says something potentially offensive depending on your panty bunching quotient. 2. Someone decries said idiot, flips tables, talks about how the industry needs to change, and can't believe others aren't as outraged as they are. 3. Everyone has their own opinion, and the discourse on HN is relatively polite, but there's also a ton of shadowy downvotes for rational comments that don't seem all that inflammatory. Here's the reality - idiots say stupid things. Whether it's denigratory to women, men, blacks, Asians, the mentally challenged, furries, or yes even redditors, it will get said. There's no point getting your feathers all ruffled over something like this - I assume it's not a common sentiment among the people who don't get fired from Facebook, and there's plenty of self-aggrandizing idiots out there to give the outragist fodder to the end of days. Finally, this is just silly: > start thinking of computing as a professional discipline, instead of a boy’s club. Computing is neither a professional discipline nor a boys club. Historically, it's been a sausage fest, and computing will never be a professional discipline so long as there are people out there willing to write PHP for fifteen dollars an hour and engineers are put out to pasture at 35.

tghw 14y ago
Idiots do say stupid things. But just shrugging it off as Yet Another Idiot does not improve the situation. People getting their "feathers all ruffled" is how we can show that this sort of behavior is not acceptable and should not be supported. Computing may be a sausage fest, but there's no reason we can't change that and there's no reason we can't aspire to being a professional discipline.
chris_wot 14y ago
Computing is neither a professional discipline nor a boys club. Historically, it's been a sausage fest, and computing will never be a professional discipline so long as there are people out there willing to write PHP for fifteen dollars an hour and engineers are put out to pasture at 35. Aside from the fact that PHP, while I personally would never use it, can and has been used to write scalable software, computing is more than just a few poor coders. It's a bit like saying that being a doctor can't be considered a profession because there are homeopaths. Your argument is neither convincing or logical.

condensor 14y ago

Not again this. It started like a good summary of a conference I'd love to attend to but then it became the usual drama blog post. "Look, someone said something stupid. Let's call out the whole community for that. Because white males are literary Hitler or worse." Yes, there are jerks. It's time to get over it.

chris_wot 14y ago
It's got nothing to do with being a white male. That a white male said it is incidental. In fact it wasn't even mentioned in the article. As a white male, however, I'd like to say to other white males (and everyone else) - cut out the bullshit sexism in your tech talk. I didn't come for your ridiculous views on women when I go to these talks. I care about tech. Your sexist views detract from your message, and I'll consider you a moron if you think sexist jokes are funny.

andrewcooke 14y ago

ok, confused and completely out of the loop here, so apologies in advance - i guess this is going to be either "how could he think that?" or "how can he not know that?". but the 3 p thing. is it supposed to be "penises"? [edit: huh. so now here's a clear case where number of votes visible would be a useful feature in HN! my guess is that "pussy" was what was intended (or misunderstood), in the context of the post.] [edit to clarify the previous edit: there used to be two replies; one for "penis" and one for "pussy"] [also, to explain how i didn't get this, i'm a uk english speaker, who left the country some 20 years ago, so "pussy" isn't really part of my vernacular - i think back then, at least, it was an american word.]

chris_wot 14y ago
Pussy. Incidentally, I'm just answering the question. The one speaking the original sentence I don't have much time for.
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phaylon 14y ago

There are seven comments here. One says "There's no point getting your feathers all ruffled over something like this" and two(!) say "Get over it". That's the reason I keep upvoting these things here. HN seems to be one of the places that really could use more exposure to this.

citricsquid 14y ago

At this point if someone doesn't post a blog post about Noah Kagan being sexist at least once a week he'll have to have died.

chris_wot 14y ago
In that case, people should stop asking him to their conferences to speak. Conferences about IT are not forums for stand up comedians. Besides which, people like Eddie Murphy or Sarah Silverman do offensive comedy better.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago

I see the usual grab bag of men making excuses for misogyny in software is out in force on Hacker News: * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just idiots being idiots. * Insisting sexism is not endemic to software, it's just jerks being jerks. * Dismissive pedantry over the claim that women are deterred from software by incidents of sexism. * Blaming women themselves for not going into software. And all of it laced with blithe stereotyping language ("panty bunching equivalent", "bitching", "drama" and so on). This predictably depressing reaction hasn't been good enough for a long time. The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face but we're too busy being dismissively sexist to see it.

debacle 14y ago
> The reason more women aren't in software is staring us right in the face. Yes, I agree completely. The reason is entirely clear - from a young age, boys are marketed to in an entirely different fashion than girls, parents gently nudge their daughters into more passive roles, and the types of toys that are available for girls that don't reinforce social stereotypes suck in a fashion that I don't think I can explain to someone who isn't raising a daughter. Lego has finally released some Legos (yeah, I pluralize it) that appeal to girls, and while some of them are lame (a hair salon, for example), others are cool, but the vast overwhelming acreage of the girls' half of any given toy store is filled with pink dolls, barbies, kitchen sets, crap to do with your hair, and the the type of half-assed girl versions of boy toys that make a responsible parent want to burn the place down.
- btilly 14y ago
  I agree with you that those toys and that marketing sucks, but I disagree that it is entirely clear that the toys and marketing are the cause of the problem. Let me offer an example. I have a pair of friends who are both PhDs in CS, and both work at Google. They have a daughter whom both parents would love to see in engineering. The mom has the following story of when she gave up trying to resist her daughter's inclinations to make everything pretty instead of wanting to build stuff. Mom left her daughter to play with a box of regular legos for a bit hoping that she would try to build something. When she came back a few minutes later, every green lego was out and a smattering of others scattered over the floor. Her daughter looked up with a big smile and announced, "Look! Here is my lawn, and these are the pretty flowers!" I have watched this with my own daughter. First, let's be clear, we do not have a TV in our house and she does not see most of that marketing. But everything "girly" that she's been exposed to, she wants. Why? My best guess is that she's keenly aware that she's a girl, she's not a boy, and she actively seeks out clues as to how to not be a boy. At preschool she gets exposed to the idea of what girls play with, and she's happy to go along. That is in her case it isn't a push from the external environment to be that way. It is a pull from within herself to figure out how to conform. Whatever the cause, the extreme girl toys you hate are in the store because they sell. The marketing that you hate is done because it works.

dexen 14y ago

Linkbait -> flagged. It's merely another ``There is misogyny in CS, we gotta do something''. Lacking in OP: - hard facts how it impacts us, - useful proposals, - *any* insight.

chris_wot 14y ago
Here's a "hard fact". There are a lack of women in IT. Here's a useful proposal - stop making sexist comments in your talks. The above I hope you can take as insight.
- chikakicks 14y ago
  So what if there is a lack of women in IT? There is a lack of men in Human Resources and child care. Why is it an issue? Why does our society need to be specially engineered to reflect demographics in some industries and not in other. Having said that, I don't believe such remarks should have a place in any professional conference.
  - regularfry 14y ago
    It's an issue because there aren't enough people in IT full stop, and because the reason half of those with the intellectual potential aren't interested is downright insulting. There's also research to say mixed gender teams perform better along some axes, but that's peanuts next to the numbers game.
  - sp332 14y ago
    It's not about "society" it's about IT. I don't have a moral reason to make all genders equal or whatever. I just want more women in IT because A) we need more people in IT in general and B) women have different kinds of interests, influences, and experiences in our society and it would be good to add those to our collective problem-solving pool.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    I disagree that there aren't enough people in IT. What I makes me annoyed is that there are many, many talented women who could be in IT or CS but who don't participate because of sexism or hostility in the workplace ecause of their gender. It's not a matter of "lighten up". It's a matter of "stop being sexist and hostil to women". The onus is not on the victim to change her behaviour, but rather very much on the transgressors!

danso 14y ago

I have nothing to add to this other than what "The Real Katie" said in "Lighten Up" http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ >> Every time I spoke up about the above crap, I got some sympathy, but I also got some guy who didn't understand what the big deal was. If I wasn't in the middle of being raped or beaten or threatened or fired, guess what I needed to do? Lighten up. How long would you put up with it? Do you love anything that much? If your spouse subtly treated you like crap every day, how long would your marriage last? If you saw a friend being treated this way by their boss, wouldn't you tell them to quit? Or would you tell them to lighten up? You, person who told me to lighten up, saw one little thing. It didn't seem like a big deal, did it? One little line! One joke! One comment! But it's not just one thing to me: it's one of thousands that I've had to endure since I was old enough to be told that 'X is for boys!' It's probably not even the first thing I've had to deal with that day, unless you've gotten to me pretty early. That's the main problem with subtle discrimination. It leaves those that it affects the most powerless against it, quietly discouraging them. If they speak up, they're treated to eye rolls at the least, and at the worst, are called oppressors themselves. We're accused of not wanting equal rights, but of wanting tyranny.

gacba 14y ago
This is not Noah's first transgression in a similar vein: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-bitch-slide/ http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-b... While I support Noah's right to say what he wants to say in the US, I do believe that his attention-grabbing tactics are in extreme poor taste and future conferences should take heed that this is what they might be signing up for by getting him as a speaker. Noah seems to be an otherwise smart guy and an excellent businessman. I'm sad that he seems somewhat obtuse to this behavior as inappropriate.
kevin_06s 14y ago
The "Lighten Up" situation is quite different in that there was an identifiable victim of the sexism who suffered concrete consequences such as being forced to attend an HR meeting. "Every woman in CS" is too broad to establish an identifiable victim and "this makes me angry" is not a concrete consequence.

spindritf 14y ago

So out of a profanity-laced presentation with embarrassing audience tricks what really got the author was saying that entrepreneurs may be motivated by money, (helping?) people and -- gasp! -- sex? The guy even went back to be more politically correct and explicitly included women and gays. How much bad will does it take to interpret that, fairly biologically obvious, remark in some twisted way to mean "women are not people"?

ReadEvalPost 14y ago
People, profits, and women would indicate the set "People" and set "Women" are disjoint.
- spindritf 14y ago
  No, it doesn't because "people" probably means users or customers or maybe your team, and "women" is a substitute for "pussy" which means people you want to have sex with. It would actually be ethically questionable for those sets not to be disjoint.
  - ReadEvalPost 14y ago
    "women" is a substitute for "pussy" which means people you want to have sex with. Right. Pussy as shorthand for sex is problematic because it reduces a woman to her sexual organs, it objectifies them. Would you enjoy being reduced to your penis? That he's using women as substitute for "pussy" and that his phrasing juxtaposes them with "people" (even though that wasn't the intent, I agree) only highlights the problem further. I understand what he was trying to convey, but that doesn't excuse the wording and the attitude it reveals.
    - funkwyrm 14y ago
      I disagree, IMHO Pussy as a shorthand for sex reduces SEX to the sexual organs. Not the woman, the sex act. That may be unenlightened (we know sex can be so much more!) but not necessarily anti-woman.

tubbo 14y ago

What was the talk even about?

jenius 14y ago

There are between 1 and 3 posts that say quite literally the EXACT same thing as this post that end up on the front page of hacker news every week, and frankly it's starting to wear thin. As @debacle said, this is becoming a really old and ridiculous trend. Let's stop making parrot posts about this issue and make posts about what you can actually do about it. It's one thing to complain about injustice, but once there are hundreds of people complaining about injustice and not a SINGLE person so much as proposing anything we could possibly do about it, it becomes a waste of time. Everyone knows that many people think there is a problem. Continuing to state this over and over is stupid. Propose a solution instead.

roguecoder 14y ago
One of the things we can do about it is highlight incidents so that there is pressure to change. Do people complain when yet another post about a bunch of badly-hashed passwords getting hacked pops up? Nope, because those posts are the best way to convince people to properly hash passwords. As for what to do about it, step one: don't use this kind of crap in your own presentations. Step two: if you see someone else doing so, protest. Step three: go out of your way to read works by women, listen to women speak and otherwise diversify your professional environment. There are at least as many posts made about things to do about this. Check out the Ada Initiative, for example. However, if you read through the comments on this article and every other you'll probably notice that many people don't think there is a problem. When solutions are proposed, as they often are, they are routinely ignored because people are unwilling to accept that this behavior is a problem, is a pattern or is part of a broader social dynamic. It is not just about shaming individuals; it is about addressing the underlying assumptions that developers are male, women are the sexual objects developers desire and it is somehow hilarious to point this out. That is impossible until people do, as you do, accept that it is a systematic issue and not an isolated incident that should be ignored. Have some patience for the people who are slightly slower; when they all come around, there won't be any more of these to post here, much less one a week.

rjzzleep 14y ago

really? i thought women get extra cakes in software roundabouts just because theyre women. and the dev geeks are usually to shy to say anything bad too. it's time we stop this annoying let's treat women the same crap. we're not, when was the last time you saw someone treat a coworker better because he was a good looking chap? now, when's the last time you or someone else treated a good looking girl better, just because she was a good looking girl? besides, how many times did you see a banker get hired with long hair and beard without suit? as for this part: "We’re better than this. Act like it. Treat your fellow developers with the same respect you’d treat someone you met on the street: basic, common courtesy. It’s not exactly asking a lot, so quit making it seem so hard to attain." if you really treat your fellow developers like you treat people on the street, maybe you should rethink the way you treat people on the street. i treat people by merit, and they get an extra bonus when theyre a good looking lady. but when i see some moron being in a good position just because she's a good looking girl, you can bet ill treat her the way she deserves. when you want sometime you have to make sacrifices. I didn't exactly get my programming knowledge handed to me on a silver platter. my taekwondo teach had to beg his master for some of his knowledge. I can tell you plenty of stories about this. you want something, you have to show that you really want it. and no i'm not talking about sex, or sexism. You asking for free labour. as for you yourself, you want an extra cake. you want to be able to spew your feminist nonsense and then expect everyone else to speak in politically correct terms. you know what the meaning of the word tolerance is? it means to tolerate ones opinion even though you might not like it. it doesn't mean that you have to subdue to someone elses ideals just in order for them to become happy. you got that part wrong. now I don't like your attitude, but I tolerate it. here's some food for thought. i've said a million times and i will keep repeating it. a lot of really awesome software that might strike you as not so good business, but is actually much more successful than the most valuable companies was built by hotheaded people, that didn't always treat each other in the best language possible. Now here's the part you don't get: How can a bunch of people that don't really like each other build awesome stuff TOGETHER? because of respect. They respect each others opinions, they respect each others work, they might not like each other by they respect each other. This respect is merit based. The kind of respect you're talking about is not respect. It's social conventions that you made up in your mind with your friends. It holds no real value, it creates nothing. by the way, even if you don't accept it, you have the same evolutionary traits as anyone else. men need someone to reproduce with, women need someone to protect them. the funny part is, most of us will never even notice.

funkwyrm 14y ago

Without being there, I can't be sure, but the way the OP describes this appears to miss the point. The way I interpret that sentence, using the very little context supplied, is profits, people, and sex yaknow, sex with women, men, whatever remember that song from the 90s opp = other people's "privates | p | p" or whatever you want "P" to stand for. Without more context, that's exactly what I get from that, nothing anti-women whatsoever.

wonderzombie 14y ago
And I guess as a guy, you're eminently qualified to determine what is and isn't insulting to women?
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  Downvotes? Ha! It's true, though, isn't it? I mean, is a Java developer qualified to critique a reasonably large C++ application? Not really, no. You can try, but there are idioms, pitfalls, and such that you just won't pick up on. So why do we tolerate the same behavior when it comes to men's experiences vs. women's experiences? This isn't all that complicated. You didn't live the last N years of your life as a woman. You can try to reason about it. Maybe you'll come close. But you just don't have the experience.

jplewicke 14y ago

In case anyone is wondering about Noah Kagan's past sexist behavior at conferences, http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-bitch-slide/ http://sherprog.com/2011/07/10/noah-kagan-and-the-faceless-b... and http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2749858 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2749858 is another example. I'm really not sure why he's being invited to speak if he still hasn't learned to be so misogynistic.

debacle 14y ago
Conferences need to fill their rosters, and if that means scraping the bottom of the barrel then so be it.

gadders 14y ago

I wonder if on the HRNews.com website, women there are decrying the absence of men in HR? Sexism is bad, and should be exterminated, but I can't help thinking that, just maybe, some jobs appeal to some sexes more than others (in the aggregate. I realise there are individual exceptions).

thebigshane 14y ago

I have such mixed feelings about this being on HN. Yes, I think we should read it and learn from it. I absolutely agree with the author. It's one of those things I wish everyone knew but for some reason there are still people who don't, so maybe showing up on the front page every once and a while is a good reminder. But the comments should be turned off. This is such a heated topic and are there aren't any right answers to this problem besides "keep it in mind, don't do what they did". What can possibly be discussed here besides emotional bickering from both sides. It does not seem productive and is not interesting conversation.

Claudus 14y ago

I guess there are articles / threads like this discussing sexism directed at men in female dominated professions too. http://ajnoffthecharts.com/2009/06/16/do-male-nurses-face-reverse-sexism/ http://ajnoffthecharts.com/2009/06/16/do-male-nurses-face-re... The 2004 federal survey of the RN population found that only 5.8% of RNs were men. This results from the profession’s use of caring philosophies that perpetuate the stereotype of women being more caring than men, as well as from the use of language that isn’t gender neutral and the failure to recruit men. http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/sexism-nursing-male-25956.html http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/sexism-nursi... As a male in nursing, I feel that I am sometimes treated differently because of my gender. I believe that I am expected to carry a heavier patient load with less assistance from my female coworkers.

MattRogish 14y ago

For what it's worth: Mark Littlewood, one of the Business of Software organizers, apologized to the group and took responsibility. I don't have the transcript but he didn't think the comment/talk was motivated by sexism.

annableker 14y ago

In my experience, a lot of boys have acted that way towards me because they've honestly never met a woman who can code. It takes a little bit before they warm up to that fact. After a while, if they're still being a dick, I'll just go somewhere else and find people to work with that aren't egocentric and dumb. That's one of the reasons why working with my brother is so awesome--he knows me well and doesn't assume I'm a "non-computer-person". GIRLS DO THIS TOO. Some girls also assume that girls are less technically inclined. My whole life, I've just had to keep on going and showing people what I'm capable of. Since I'm a white girl who likes wearing dresses, people don't expect it, but they find out soon enough.