4 ms·

Its about countering adversarial GPS spoofing, not a lack of satellites.

by tokai 11mo ago

graemep 11mo ago
Why was that not a consideration from the start? Surely it is expected that any system with military applications will face jamming and spoofing?
- coliveira 11mo ago
  The US military always believe in the idea that the enemy is stupid or poor and cannot do anything against them.
  - atonse 11mo ago
    Got any citations that support making such a blanket statement?
- tokai 11mo ago
  US were the first to develop GPS spoofing/jamming capabilities, so its not like they didn't think of it. I would guess that the need for a navigation system was huge, and it was unfeasible at the time to build a system impervious to electronic warfare.
- tbrownaw 11mo ago
  It sounds like it's more that an existing problem is becoming much more frequent.
  - graemep 11mo ago
    That should also have been foreseeable.
    - tokai 11mo ago
      It was foreseen. There is a huge amount of literature on hardening of GPS from the begining of the technology. Here's so random examples: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2161-4296.1989.tb01514.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2161-4296.... https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/html/tr/ADA057265/ https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/html/tr/ADA057265/ https://www.ion.org/publications/abstract.cfm?articleID=12012 https://www.ion.org/publications/abstract.cfm?articleID=1201... https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/609916 https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/609916
      - graemep 11mo ago
        So what was done? Has GPS been hardened, for example?
        tokai 11mo ago
        I literally provided you with sources that describe Anti-Jam GPS designs.
- icegreentea2 11mo ago
  It was a consideration. This is why M-Code exists - so be spoof resistant. And jamming is just a fact of life, which is why the vast majority of US military GPS guided munitions are actually GPS/INS guided munitions. They are all capable of falling back to inertial navigation, with some degradation in performance. USG is in this position for a few reasons: * It is actually technologically difficult to create GPS equivalent INS (or similar system). Everyone is pursuing this, not just USG/DOD. The Chinese are too for sure. * It is true that the DoD became somewhat over reliant on GPS from a training and doctrine perspective. While they continued to develop and buy systems and munitions with INS backup, you can't operate with near total air/space/cyber dominance for ~2 decades without it somehow effecting your culture * The war in Ukraine has been a catalyst for all sorts of technological changes, both in the West, but all across the world.

Its about countering adversarial GPS spoofing, not a lack of satellites.

by tokai 11mo ago

Its about countering adversarial GPS spoofing, not a lack of satellites.

Why was that not a consideration from the start? Surely it is expected that any system with military applications will face jamming and spoofing?

coliveira 11mo ago
The US military always believe in the idea that the enemy is stupid or poor and cannot do anything against them.
- atonse 11mo ago
  Got any citations that support making such a blanket statement?
tokai 11mo ago
US were the first to develop GPS spoofing/jamming capabilities, so its not like they didn't think of it. I would guess that the need for a navigation system was huge, and it was unfeasible at the time to build a system impervious to electronic warfare.
tbrownaw 11mo ago
It sounds like it's more that an existing problem is becoming much more frequent.
- graemep 11mo ago
  That should also have been foreseeable.
  - tokai 11mo ago
    It was foreseen. There is a huge amount of literature on hardening of GPS from the begining of the technology. Here's so random examples: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2161-4296.1989.tb01514.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.2161-4296.... https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/html/tr/ADA057265/ https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/html/tr/ADA057265/ https://www.ion.org/publications/abstract.cfm?articleID=12012 https://www.ion.org/publications/abstract.cfm?articleID=1201... https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/609916 https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/609916
    - graemep 11mo ago
      So what was done? Has GPS been hardened, for example?
      - tokai 11mo ago
        I literally provided you with sources that describe Anti-Jam GPS designs.
icegreentea2 11mo ago
It was a consideration. This is why M-Code exists - so be spoof resistant. And jamming is just a fact of life, which is why the vast majority of US military GPS guided munitions are actually GPS/INS guided munitions. They are all capable of falling back to inertial navigation, with some degradation in performance. USG is in this position for a few reasons: * It is actually technologically difficult to create GPS equivalent INS (or similar system). Everyone is pursuing this, not just USG/DOD. The Chinese are too for sure. * It is true that the DoD became somewhat over reliant on GPS from a training and doctrine perspective. While they continued to develop and buy systems and munitions with INS backup, you can't operate with near total air/space/cyber dominance for ~2 decades without it somehow effecting your culture * The war in Ukraine has been a catalyst for all sorts of technological changes, both in the West, but all across the world.