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You're trivialising the complexity of both brains and LLMs in order to mystify and equate them. We can boil down a toy script, an LLM, and the brain down to eng
by anonymous908213 11mo ago
You're trivialising the complexity of both brains and LLMs in order to mystify and equate them. We can boil down a toy script, an LLM, and the brain down to engaging in a simplistic pattern of "act according to environmental information, adjust behaviour based on feedback". But unless you think that the script is conscious, there is clearly something more to consciousness than only that pattern.
The script is simple in concept, (relatively) simple in mechanics. LLMs are simple in concept, very complex in mechanics. Brains are simple in concept, extremely complex as to be beyond full human understanding in mechanics. We have the general gist of brain mechanics, and we can even engage in some brain hacking, but we lack the understanding to fully recreate the mechanics from scratch. To say that it is simple in mechanics is clearly not true, then.
To the extent that we do understand brain mechanics, they pose no similarity to the script nor the LLM. Although more mechanically complex, an LLM still operates on the exact same axis as the script; it is no more than math operations on a dataset. It has no capacity to reason. People selling LLMs have gone a long way to training it to have the illusion of reasoning, but in reality, "Thinking" is just a mode that increases the probability of certain tokens under certain circumstances. The modified winrate of tokens that reflect the superficial appearance of thinking exceeds the winrate of tokens that would otherwise come next, so it prints output that looks like introspection, but this is still just the result of rolling a die and comparing it against a probability table. Our brains categorically do not function anything like this. While the basic pattern of acting according to the environment may be similar, the actual mechanics by which this is achieved are completely different.
There isn't really anything to prove here. This isn't a meaningful scientific question. It is a delusion peddled by people who are trying to profit off of the delusion, and absorbed by people who do not actually understand the mechanical complexity of LLMs nor the brain and therefore are unable to differentiate between the two.
- estearum 11mo ago> Our brains categorically do not function anything like this. Yes, they actually do. It seems you’re under the belief there is some special “reasoning machine” inside a brain: there is not. It is all “just probabilities” that are encoded and re-encoded depending on the outcome of the prediction. What exactly do you think the brain is doing on the sensory input it receives if not “math operations?” It is literally just chemical, electrical, and thermal reactions in response to sensory data (itself just chemical, electrical, and thermal signals). Where does the probabilistic reaction end and “reason” or “cognition” begin? Hint: Nowhere!
- anonymous908213 11mo agoYes, everything is just physical reactions when boiled down to its simplest state. Again, this is trivialising complexity. The nature of those reactions are where the brain differentiates itself. Even if the chemical reactions were purely mathematically-driven (not necessarily the case), the nature of the calculations is completely different. LLMs are calculating next-token-probability. That is literally the only thing they calculate. Your special "reasoning machine", then, would be code that instead calculates logic-adherence-probability. If you want to treat the brain as a computer, then we have such code somewhere in our DNA program. It's really self-evident that no part of an LLM's code is oriented towards genuine reasoning, therefore they cannot reason. Perhaps if a sufficiently powerful machine was coded in a way that was conducive to reasoning, it could be described as conscious. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that consciousness could be attained in electrical circuits outright. LLMs are simply not the mechanism by which that can ever happen. They are merely a mechanism that is good at creating a fascimile of reasoning output with non-reasoning input.
- estearum 11mo ago“Reasoning” is nothing more than making a prediction, finding out whether it was right or wrong, then encoding that into your probabilities for a future prediction. The human mind is so lossy at this that we literally invent symbolic systems to externalize the process and constrain our intrinsically probabilistic (therefore allegedly “reasoning-less”) hardware. There are only predictions and outcomes as far as the brain or the LLM are concerned.
- anonymous908213 11mo agoWow, was everything you just said wrong on every account. Reasoning is the ability to follow logical rules to their conclusion; it is not a probabilistic endeavour. We have 100% confidence that 1 + 1 is 2, 2 + 1 is 3, 3 + 1 is 4, following infinitely. Meanwhile an LLM cannot reliably sum two numbers because it is operating purely probabilistically. We invent symbolic systems to record and communicate the reasoning that occurs inside our heads. Externalization is in no way necessary to the actual reasoning. The "lossy" part is when humans die and lose the progress they had made on reasoning. Writing it down preserves and transfers the progress so that others can learn from and continue building on it. I don't understand why LLM consciousness-believers are so down on the brain's code. Why is it difficult for you to believe that we have code that is, in fact, more complicated than guessing the next token? It's weird that we develop this technology that is cool but pretty clearly nowhere near our capabilities, and then diminish our own capabilities in our eagerness to promote how cool the new tool is.