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Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?

by verroq 14y ago

ben0x539 14y ago
I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it. I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape. That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    My point is that his choice of absurd and controversial statement detracts from his point. I see what he's doing there, but I don't like it.
    - iamdave 14y ago
      No one said you had to.
  - jamesmiller5 14y ago
    I don't believe the point was missed, the article could still use absurdity without the absurd act being rape. It was distracting to use rape as the absurd action and weakened the message delivery.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Actually, I think it strengthened the delivery. It made you and everyone else think about it and discuss it. Pretty effective really! P.S. the iPad spellchecker sucks.
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        Looks like he read the concerns and changed it to murder. He's a pretty reasonable human being :-)
anthonyb 14y ago
Are you seriously suggesting that there are some contexts where rape is funny?
- ben0x539 14y ago
  Here's someone suggesting that: http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape-joke http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape... (among a number of other points) I'm not entirely convinced that it is ever a good idea to make a rape joke, but I see where her argument is going.
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    Well, those two jokes, in context, are about how rape is bad. In this particular case, and in Daniel Tosh's case - it's nowhere near as clearcut. Notch was casting around for something bad, and happened to pick rape :\
- veidr 14y ago
  Yes, that is clearly what he is suggesting, and it's true. Dead babies, testicular cancer, and genocide can also be hilarious in the right circumstances. However, the author must have decided that this wasn't actually one of those times, seeing as he changed the title to Don't be a goat murderer...
- josephlord 14y ago
  There may be some that are funny even if they are a bad idea and it generally shouldn't be the only criteria. Think at least twice before making a rape joke. If in doubt think of another joke. Generally they are a bad idea and need to be carefully thought about. You should probably also stick to a few guidelines: the victim of the joke should not be the victim of the rape, it should not be trivialised (this includes inappropriate comparisions and probably the original title), it shouldn't be threatening and it shouldn't blame the victim. If you are not following these you probably need to think about it ten times and consider different viewpoints on it. Those more likely to be victims [women, maybe some other subgroups] (or who have actually been victims) have much more leeway. Note that I don't think they should be banned unless there is a seriously threatening, harassing or inciting aspect but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be criticism. I don't think any malice was intended by Notch but I think it fell in the trivialising category and I am glad that he has decided to change it. Being about an animal helped make it ridiculous but probably made the word rape unnecessary. The British 'shagger' or Australian 'rooter' would probably have worked OK although I don't know if there is a US equivalent lighter than the F-word. 'XXXXer' might have worked.
lauraura 14y ago
If you're speaking to a randomly selected adult American audience, on average, roughly 1 in 12 people in that audience have been raped. You're probably going to make a good portion of those people feel even more awful about being a victim -- never mind the PTSD. That should be good enough reason not to joke about it.
- flexie 14y ago
  Every rape is one too many but these 1 in 12 (or 1 in 4) figures that we hear about, are dubious: http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-statistic-broken-down.html http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-st... I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    >I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable. They certainly are. FBI labs, who had every incentive to find otherwise, has discovered that, of every 100 sex crime reports filed by women, between 20 and 40 of them are false: "False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought": http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html Researched by Wendy McElroy, editor of ifeminists.com (who also had every incentive to find otherwise, and who expected to).
    - flexie 14y ago
      Along those lines: This study by forensic science researcher, Birgitte Schmidt Astrup, found that consensual sexual intercourse often produces genital lesions: http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abstract http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abst... It's interesting, because the finding of genital lesions sometimes decide the outcome of rape cases.
JulianMorrison 14y ago
"Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk." http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-pre...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?

by verroq 14y ago

Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?

I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it. I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.

chris_wot 14y ago
You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape. That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.
- ben0x539 14y ago
  My point is that his choice of absurd and controversial statement detracts from his point. I see what he's doing there, but I don't like it.
  - iamdave 14y ago
    No one said you had to.
- jamesmiller5 14y ago
  I don't believe the point was missed, the article could still use absurdity without the absurd act being rape. It was distracting to use rape as the absurd action and weakened the message delivery.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Actually, I think it strengthened the delivery. It made you and everyone else think about it and discuss it. Pretty effective really! P.S. the iPad spellchecker sucks.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Looks like he read the concerns and changed it to murder. He's a pretty reasonable human being :-)

anthonyb 14y ago

Are you seriously suggesting that there are some contexts where rape is funny?

ben0x539 14y ago
Here's someone suggesting that: http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape-joke http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape... (among a number of other points) I'm not entirely convinced that it is ever a good idea to make a rape joke, but I see where her argument is going.
- anthonyb 14y ago
  Well, those two jokes, in context, are about how rape is bad. In this particular case, and in Daniel Tosh's case - it's nowhere near as clearcut. Notch was casting around for something bad, and happened to pick rape :\
veidr 14y ago
Yes, that is clearly what he is suggesting, and it's true. Dead babies, testicular cancer, and genocide can also be hilarious in the right circumstances. However, the author must have decided that this wasn't actually one of those times, seeing as he changed the title to Don't be a goat murderer...
josephlord 14y ago
There may be some that are funny even if they are a bad idea and it generally shouldn't be the only criteria. Think at least twice before making a rape joke. If in doubt think of another joke. Generally they are a bad idea and need to be carefully thought about. You should probably also stick to a few guidelines: the victim of the joke should not be the victim of the rape, it should not be trivialised (this includes inappropriate comparisions and probably the original title), it shouldn't be threatening and it shouldn't blame the victim. If you are not following these you probably need to think about it ten times and consider different viewpoints on it. Those more likely to be victims [women, maybe some other subgroups] (or who have actually been victims) have much more leeway. Note that I don't think they should be banned unless there is a seriously threatening, harassing or inciting aspect but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be criticism. I don't think any malice was intended by Notch but I think it fell in the trivialising category and I am glad that he has decided to change it. Being about an animal helped make it ridiculous but probably made the word rape unnecessary. The British 'shagger' or Australian 'rooter' would probably have worked OK although I don't know if there is a US equivalent lighter than the F-word. 'XXXXer' might have worked.

lauraura 14y ago

If you're speaking to a randomly selected adult American audience, on average, roughly 1 in 12 people in that audience have been raped. You're probably going to make a good portion of those people feel even more awful about being a victim -- never mind the PTSD. That should be good enough reason not to joke about it.

flexie 14y ago
Every rape is one too many but these 1 in 12 (or 1 in 4) figures that we hear about, are dubious: http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-statistic-broken-down.html http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-st... I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable.
- lutusp 14y ago
  >I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable. They certainly are. FBI labs, who had every incentive to find otherwise, has discovered that, of every 100 sex crime reports filed by women, between 20 and 40 of them are false: "False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought": http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html Researched by Wendy McElroy, editor of ifeminists.com (who also had every incentive to find otherwise, and who expected to).
  - flexie 14y ago
    Along those lines: This study by forensic science researcher, Birgitte Schmidt Astrup, found that consensual sexual intercourse often produces genital lesions: http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abstract http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abst... It's interesting, because the finding of genital lesions sometimes decide the outcome of rape cases.

JulianMorrison 14y ago

"Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk." http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-pre...

deleted 14y ago
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