4 ms·

I appreciate notch's position on the whole thing, but I wish he didn't feel the need to make his point with rape jokes. (Edit: It's not made with rape jokes an

I appreciate notch's position on the whole thing, but I wish he didn't feel the need to make his point with rape jokes. (Edit: It's not made with rape jokes anymore. Previously, it said "goat rapist", now it says "goat murderer", which is rather preferable to me.)

guelo 14y ago
Well, at least goat rape is a bunch of notches below human rape in awfulness.
- ben0x539 14y ago
  Sure. But goat rape jokes still contribute to an atmosphere where rape is treated as a joke.
  - verroq 14y ago
    Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?
    - ben0x539 14y ago
      I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it. I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape. That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.
        ben0x539 14y ago
        My point is that his choice of absurd and controversial statement detracts from his point. I see what he's doing there, but I don't like it.
        iamdave 14y ago
        No one said you had to.
        jamesmiller5 14y ago
        I don't believe the point was missed, the article could still use absurdity without the absurd act being rape. It was distracting to use rape as the absurd action and weakened the message delivery.
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Actually, I think it strengthened the delivery. It made you and everyone else think about it and discuss it. Pretty effective really! P.S. the iPad spellchecker sucks.
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Looks like he read the concerns and changed it to murder. He's a pretty reasonable human being :-)
    - anthonyb 14y ago
      Are you seriously suggesting that there are some contexts where rape is funny?
      - ben0x539 14y ago
        Here's someone suggesting that: http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape-joke http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape... (among a number of other points) I'm not entirely convinced that it is ever a good idea to make a rape joke, but I see where her argument is going.
        anthonyb 14y ago
        Well, those two jokes, in context, are about how rape is bad. In this particular case, and in Daniel Tosh's case - it's nowhere near as clearcut. Notch was casting around for something bad, and happened to pick rape :\
      - veidr 14y ago
        Yes, that is clearly what he is suggesting, and it's true. Dead babies, testicular cancer, and genocide can also be hilarious in the right circumstances. However, the author must have decided that this wasn't actually one of those times, seeing as he changed the title to Don't be a goat murderer...
      - josephlord 14y ago
        There may be some that are funny even if they are a bad idea and it generally shouldn't be the only criteria. Think at least twice before making a rape joke. If in doubt think of another joke. Generally they are a bad idea and need to be carefully thought about. You should probably also stick to a few guidelines: the victim of the joke should not be the victim of the rape, it should not be trivialised (this includes inappropriate comparisions and probably the original title), it shouldn't be threatening and it shouldn't blame the victim. If you are not following these you probably need to think about it ten times and consider different viewpoints on it. Those more likely to be victims [women, maybe some other subgroups] (or who have actually been victims) have much more leeway. Note that I don't think they should be banned unless there is a seriously threatening, harassing or inciting aspect but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be criticism. I don't think any malice was intended by Notch but I think it fell in the trivialising category and I am glad that he has decided to change it. Being about an animal helped make it ridiculous but probably made the word rape unnecessary. The British 'shagger' or Australian 'rooter' would probably have worked OK although I don't know if there is a US equivalent lighter than the F-word. 'XXXXer' might have worked.
    - lauraura 14y ago
      If you're speaking to a randomly selected adult American audience, on average, roughly 1 in 12 people in that audience have been raped. You're probably going to make a good portion of those people feel even more awful about being a victim -- never mind the PTSD. That should be good enough reason not to joke about it.
      - flexie 14y ago
        Every rape is one too many but these 1 in 12 (or 1 in 4) figures that we hear about, are dubious: http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-statistic-broken-down.html http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-st... I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable.
        lutusp 14y ago
        >I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable. They certainly are. FBI labs, who had every incentive to find otherwise, has discovered that, of every 100 sex crime reports filed by women, between 20 and 40 of them are false: "False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought": http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html Researched by Wendy McElroy, editor of ifeminists.com (who also had every incentive to find otherwise, and who expected to).
        flexie 14y ago
        Along those lines: This study by forensic science researcher, Birgitte Schmidt Astrup, found that consensual sexual intercourse often produces genital lesions: http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abstract http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abst... It's interesting, because the finding of genital lesions sometimes decide the outcome of rape cases.
    - JulianMorrison 14y ago
      "Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk." http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-pre...
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - Anderkent 14y ago
    And goat murder jokes contribute to an atmosphere where murder is treated as a joke. Seriously?
    - dasil003 14y ago
      Yeah this is political correctness gone wild. You can tell a good joke about anything, and you can tell a joke in poor taste about anything as well.
  - redthrowaway 14y ago
    The fundamental difference between literalists and those of us who view the world in a humourous, ironic way is that, for the latter, nothing is off-bounds for a joke. We'll always offend those who believe that some matters are sacred, and the literalists will always annoy and disappoint us. It doesn't do much good for the two sides to argue over who's right, as they can't even agree on first principles. Personally, I'm fine with goat rape.
    - galactus 14y ago
      Are you also fine with racist jokes?
      - redthrowaway 14y ago
        As long as they're funny. The more potentially offensive a joke, the sweeter the payoff if the teller hits the right note, and the harder it is to do so.
    - ben0x539 14y ago
      Annoyed and disappointed that people are concerned about rape. Wow.
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        He's changed it now. He's a pretty sensible guy!
      - redthrowaway 14y ago
        Annoyed and disappointed that some people seem incapable of viewing a subject, and humour about a subject, as distinct phenomena.
        ben0x539 14y ago
        I see them as distinct phenomena. I don't think making jokes about rape is literally as bad as rape. I'm not concerned that notch might be abusing animals because of his jokes. I don't think rape jokes are dangerous directly because I don't like rape. I still think people should exercise more caution before making jokes about rape. It's very easy to get them wrong.
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  Try telling that to the goat!
VMG 14y ago
He just changed it to "goat murderer". I wonder if a "is murder ever funny?" discussion will ensue now...
- ben0x539 14y ago
  Here is an argument that rape jokes and "murder jokes" are not entirely equivalent: http://opinionade.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-murder-is-funnier-than-rape.html http://opinionade.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-murder-is-funnier...
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    That was a horrible argument. In short it said that some people can make rape jokes because we all know they don't like rape. But Tosh... hmmm... he kind of looks like a rapist so we're not too sure about him... no rape jokes for Tosh. What kind of dumb shit logic is that?
    - VMG 14y ago
      Exactly what I thought. Also "We know only sociopaths find murder OK" - while the US still has Captial punishment and people find all kinds of excuses for murder all the time ("he just found his wife with another man", heat of the moment, etc..)
- jamesmiller5 14y ago
  The "Jimquisition" does a great piece on why murder is more socially acceptable than rape in the context of video games.

guelo 14y ago

Well, at least goat rape is a bunch of notches below human rape in awfulness.

ben0x539 14y ago
Sure. But goat rape jokes still contribute to an atmosphere where rape is treated as a joke.
- verroq 14y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it. I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape. That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.
      - ben0x539 14y ago
        My point is that his choice of absurd and controversial statement detracts from his point. I see what he's doing there, but I don't like it.
        iamdave 14y ago
        No one said you had to.
      - jamesmiller5 14y ago
        I don't believe the point was missed, the article could still use absurdity without the absurd act being rape. It was distracting to use rape as the absurd action and weakened the message delivery.
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Actually, I think it strengthened the delivery. It made you and everyone else think about it and discuss it. Pretty effective really! P.S. the iPad spellchecker sucks.
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Looks like he read the concerns and changed it to murder. He's a pretty reasonable human being :-)
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    Are you seriously suggesting that there are some contexts where rape is funny?
    - ben0x539 14y ago
      Here's someone suggesting that: http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape-joke http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape... (among a number of other points) I'm not entirely convinced that it is ever a good idea to make a rape joke, but I see where her argument is going.
      - anthonyb 14y ago
        Well, those two jokes, in context, are about how rape is bad. In this particular case, and in Daniel Tosh's case - it's nowhere near as clearcut. Notch was casting around for something bad, and happened to pick rape :\
    - veidr 14y ago
      Yes, that is clearly what he is suggesting, and it's true. Dead babies, testicular cancer, and genocide can also be hilarious in the right circumstances. However, the author must have decided that this wasn't actually one of those times, seeing as he changed the title to Don't be a goat murderer...
    - josephlord 14y ago
      There may be some that are funny even if they are a bad idea and it generally shouldn't be the only criteria. Think at least twice before making a rape joke. If in doubt think of another joke. Generally they are a bad idea and need to be carefully thought about. You should probably also stick to a few guidelines: the victim of the joke should not be the victim of the rape, it should not be trivialised (this includes inappropriate comparisions and probably the original title), it shouldn't be threatening and it shouldn't blame the victim. If you are not following these you probably need to think about it ten times and consider different viewpoints on it. Those more likely to be victims [women, maybe some other subgroups] (or who have actually been victims) have much more leeway. Note that I don't think they should be banned unless there is a seriously threatening, harassing or inciting aspect but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be criticism. I don't think any malice was intended by Notch but I think it fell in the trivialising category and I am glad that he has decided to change it. Being about an animal helped make it ridiculous but probably made the word rape unnecessary. The British 'shagger' or Australian 'rooter' would probably have worked OK although I don't know if there is a US equivalent lighter than the F-word. 'XXXXer' might have worked.
  - lauraura 14y ago
    If you're speaking to a randomly selected adult American audience, on average, roughly 1 in 12 people in that audience have been raped. You're probably going to make a good portion of those people feel even more awful about being a victim -- never mind the PTSD. That should be good enough reason not to joke about it.
    - flexie 14y ago
      Every rape is one too many but these 1 in 12 (or 1 in 4) figures that we hear about, are dubious: http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-statistic-broken-down.html http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-st... I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable.
      - lutusp 14y ago
        >I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable. They certainly are. FBI labs, who had every incentive to find otherwise, has discovered that, of every 100 sex crime reports filed by women, between 20 and 40 of them are false: "False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought": http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html Researched by Wendy McElroy, editor of ifeminists.com (who also had every incentive to find otherwise, and who expected to).
        flexie 14y ago
        Along those lines: This study by forensic science researcher, Birgitte Schmidt Astrup, found that consensual sexual intercourse often produces genital lesions: http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abstract http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abst... It's interesting, because the finding of genital lesions sometimes decide the outcome of rape cases.
  - JulianMorrison 14y ago
    "Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk." http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-pre...
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- Anderkent 14y ago
  And goat murder jokes contribute to an atmosphere where murder is treated as a joke. Seriously?
  - dasil003 14y ago
    Yeah this is political correctness gone wild. You can tell a good joke about anything, and you can tell a joke in poor taste about anything as well.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  The fundamental difference between literalists and those of us who view the world in a humourous, ironic way is that, for the latter, nothing is off-bounds for a joke. We'll always offend those who believe that some matters are sacred, and the literalists will always annoy and disappoint us. It doesn't do much good for the two sides to argue over who's right, as they can't even agree on first principles. Personally, I'm fine with goat rape.
  - galactus 14y ago
    Are you also fine with racist jokes?
    - redthrowaway 14y ago
      As long as they're funny. The more potentially offensive a joke, the sweeter the payoff if the teller hits the right note, and the harder it is to do so.
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    Annoyed and disappointed that people are concerned about rape. Wow.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      He's changed it now. He's a pretty sensible guy!
    - redthrowaway 14y ago
      Annoyed and disappointed that some people seem incapable of viewing a subject, and humour about a subject, as distinct phenomena.
      - ben0x539 14y ago
        I see them as distinct phenomena. I don't think making jokes about rape is literally as bad as rape. I'm not concerned that notch might be abusing animals because of his jokes. I don't think rape jokes are dangerous directly because I don't like rape. I still think people should exercise more caution before making jokes about rape. It's very easy to get them wrong.
snogglethorpe 14y ago
Try telling that to the goat!

VMG 14y ago

He just changed it to "goat murderer". I wonder if a "is murder ever funny?" discussion will ensue now...

ben0x539 14y ago
Here is an argument that rape jokes and "murder jokes" are not entirely equivalent: http://opinionade.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-murder-is-funnier-than-rape.html http://opinionade.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-murder-is-funnier...
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  That was a horrible argument. In short it said that some people can make rape jokes because we all know they don't like rape. But Tosh... hmmm... he kind of looks like a rapist so we're not too sure about him... no rape jokes for Tosh. What kind of dumb shit logic is that?
  - VMG 14y ago
    Exactly what I thought. Also "We know only sociopaths find murder OK" - while the US still has Captial punishment and people find all kinds of excuses for murder all the time ("he just found his wife with another man", heat of the moment, etc..)
jamesmiller5 14y ago
The "Jimquisition" does a great piece on why murder is more socially acceptable than rape in the context of video games.