5 ms·

John Callaham: Don’t be a goat murderer*

35 points by _ikke_ 14y ago

praptak 14y ago
This is a response to this piece by John Callaham: http://www.neowin.net/news/notch-dont-be-a-hypocrite-about-minecraft-and-windows-8 http://www.neowin.net/news/notch-dont-be-a-hypocrite-about-m...
- arkitaip 14y ago
  Pretty pathetic by both Callaham and notch.
- simias 14y ago
  After reading this I still don't get what Notch's getting at with his "goat raping" joke. I didn't feel like John Callaham's editorial was that violent.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > After reading this I still don't get what Notch's getting at with his "goat raping" joke. Lies about other people and their stance. Callaham chides notch supposed hypocrisy regarding closed v open, but notch never said he minds closed platforms (he uses them and publishes on them), he said he minds the PC getting closed off, as it breaks a path to indiedom (which he knows about, since he needed it to make Minecraft in the first place, a 2 years alpha/beta taking money the whole way would never have flown on closed stores, as far as I can see) The goat raping thing is a strawman, just as Callaham's "notch hypocrisy" is one.
    - lmm 14y ago
      notch never said he minds closed platforms (he uses them and publishes on them), he said he minds the PC getting closed off I think that's a distinction without a difference. In what sense is an ipad, or a PS3, not a PC?
      - masklinn 14y ago
        > In what sense is an ipad, or a PS3, not a PC? In the sense that you can't tinker with the software (let alone replace it) on-board from the device itself, short of having preemptively forced said device open from a third-party device. They don't provide any way to bootstrap yourself to a higher level of knowledge, or even to a business. And you remain at the mercy of the platform's gatekeeper. Not so with the a PC.
        lmm 14y ago
        >In the sense that you can't tinker with the software (let alone replace it) on-board from the device itself, short of having preemptively forced said device open from a third-party device. They don't provide any way to bootstrap yourself to a higher level of knowledge, or even to a business. And you remain at the mercy of the platform's gatekeeper. Right, but all that would be equally true of a putative locked-down windows 8 device. I don't understand how notch can oppose the one but support the other.
        masklinn 14y ago
        Because the "putative locked-down windows 8 device" is a big step towards removing the open-device PC by closing off that platform as well, and that is the issue Notch has with W8.
        lmm 14y ago
        I think the ipad is equally well trying to remove the open-device PC from most homes.
        mcosta 14y ago
        Trying... I see more danger in a drm-only windows 8 than the one comming form the ipad. I mean, the ipad is going to hurt the sales, but microsoft cant hurt the core itself. Think about vinyls. CD replaced them. But are alive. But what would happen if the manufacturers start to make dj tables without crossfaders?
    - simias 14y ago
      I don't think it's a strawman, Notch doesn't explain why he's ok with some closed platforms and not others, besides the fact that he "cares a lot about his PC". Moreover, Minecraft is not exactly "open" itself, it's not open source and even used to be pretty hostile towards modders (even though that is changing, but I don't know how much notch is involved with minecraft these days). So I think it's fair to call him a bit hypocritical when he suddenly gets on his high horse "RMS style" about software freedom (but only on the PC and only for the operating system). And replying to this by using a "goat rape" argument is beyond childish, I don't think that's a very good way to get his point across.
      - masklinn 14y ago
        > I don't think it's a strawman, Notch doesn't explain why he's ok with some closed platforms and not others Which has nothing to do with the strawman. The strawman is "notch says all platforms should be open (nb: he never said that) but he publishes on closed platforms, therefore he's a hypocrite". As to why "some and not others", it's not "some and not others" it's "the PC is an open platform, it offers amazing opportunities (nb: Notch got his start from this open platform after all, and it looks like he's not forgotten it yet), I have no desire to see the door closed after getting through".
jacquesm 14y ago
Good thing John Callaham stopped beating his wife. Classy response by Notch (ahem). But I do wished more developers would take such a principled stance.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  That doesn't work. There is no answer to the question "when did you stop beating your wife" except "I never started!"? Or if you are unmarried, just say "I don't have a wife".
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Yes, it doesn't withstand careful examination. It is almost as though that phrase were a joke...
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Depends on the context. Some times it is used as a joke, other times it highlights a loaded question.
ben0x539 14y ago
I appreciate notch's position on the whole thing, but I wish he didn't feel the need to make his point with rape jokes. (Edit: It's not made with rape jokes anymore. Previously, it said "goat rapist", now it says "goat murderer", which is rather preferable to me.)
- guelo 14y ago
  Well, at least goat rape is a bunch of notches below human rape in awfulness.
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    Sure. But goat rape jokes still contribute to an atmosphere where rape is treated as a joke.
    - verroq 14y ago
      Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?
      - ben0x539 14y ago
        I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it. I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.
        chris_wot 14y ago
        You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape. That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.
rhplus 14y ago
When you have a multi-million selling game and a new platform comes along, you don't tell the world you're definitely going to port it. You wait for the 6 figure check to arrive and then port it. If it's 7 figures, you call it a platform exclusive.
- eckyptang 14y ago
  Yes we'll see how principled Notch is when they wave a fat cheque in front of him... Money is the divider between words and actions.
  - kanamekun 14y ago
    Money is not a huge motivator for Notch... back in March of this year, he gave seven figures ($3 million) of his personal dividends to his fellow Mojang employees: http://www.develop-online.net/news/40013/Notch-gifts-3-million-to-Mojang-team http://www.develop-online.net/news/40013/Notch-gifts-3-milli... Given his taken on money — and that Notch has taken a very public stance against participating in helping to close the PC — it is very unlikely that a fat cheque would result in a change of his actions. Time will tell, I suppose.
prodigal_erik 14y ago
It does seem arbitrary that only Microsoft ought to treat their consumers like tool-using human beings.

35 points by _ikke_ 14y ago

This is a response to this piece by John Callaham: http://www.neowin.net/news/notch-dont-be-a-hypocrite-about-minecraft-and-windows-8 http://www.neowin.net/news/notch-dont-be-a-hypocrite-about-m...

arkitaip 14y ago
Pretty pathetic by both Callaham and notch.
simias 14y ago
After reading this I still don't get what Notch's getting at with his "goat raping" joke. I didn't feel like John Callaham's editorial was that violent.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > After reading this I still don't get what Notch's getting at with his "goat raping" joke. Lies about other people and their stance. Callaham chides notch supposed hypocrisy regarding closed v open, but notch never said he minds closed platforms (he uses them and publishes on them), he said he minds the PC getting closed off, as it breaks a path to indiedom (which he knows about, since he needed it to make Minecraft in the first place, a 2 years alpha/beta taking money the whole way would never have flown on closed stores, as far as I can see) The goat raping thing is a strawman, just as Callaham's "notch hypocrisy" is one.
  - lmm 14y ago
    notch never said he minds closed platforms (he uses them and publishes on them), he said he minds the PC getting closed off I think that's a distinction without a difference. In what sense is an ipad, or a PS3, not a PC?
    - masklinn 14y ago
      > In what sense is an ipad, or a PS3, not a PC? In the sense that you can't tinker with the software (let alone replace it) on-board from the device itself, short of having preemptively forced said device open from a third-party device. They don't provide any way to bootstrap yourself to a higher level of knowledge, or even to a business. And you remain at the mercy of the platform's gatekeeper. Not so with the a PC.
      - lmm 14y ago
        >In the sense that you can't tinker with the software (let alone replace it) on-board from the device itself, short of having preemptively forced said device open from a third-party device. They don't provide any way to bootstrap yourself to a higher level of knowledge, or even to a business. And you remain at the mercy of the platform's gatekeeper. Right, but all that would be equally true of a putative locked-down windows 8 device. I don't understand how notch can oppose the one but support the other.
        masklinn 14y ago
        Because the "putative locked-down windows 8 device" is a big step towards removing the open-device PC by closing off that platform as well, and that is the issue Notch has with W8.
        lmm 14y ago
        I think the ipad is equally well trying to remove the open-device PC from most homes.
        mcosta 14y ago
        Trying... I see more danger in a drm-only windows 8 than the one comming form the ipad. I mean, the ipad is going to hurt the sales, but microsoft cant hurt the core itself. Think about vinyls. CD replaced them. But are alive. But what would happen if the manufacturers start to make dj tables without crossfaders?
  - simias 14y ago
    I don't think it's a strawman, Notch doesn't explain why he's ok with some closed platforms and not others, besides the fact that he "cares a lot about his PC". Moreover, Minecraft is not exactly "open" itself, it's not open source and even used to be pretty hostile towards modders (even though that is changing, but I don't know how much notch is involved with minecraft these days). So I think it's fair to call him a bit hypocritical when he suddenly gets on his high horse "RMS style" about software freedom (but only on the PC and only for the operating system). And replying to this by using a "goat rape" argument is beyond childish, I don't think that's a very good way to get his point across.
    - masklinn 14y ago
      > I don't think it's a strawman, Notch doesn't explain why he's ok with some closed platforms and not others Which has nothing to do with the strawman. The strawman is "notch says all platforms should be open (nb: he never said that) but he publishes on closed platforms, therefore he's a hypocrite". As to why "some and not others", it's not "some and not others" it's "the PC is an open platform, it offers amazing opportunities (nb: Notch got his start from this open platform after all, and it looks like he's not forgotten it yet), I have no desire to see the door closed after getting through".

jacquesm 14y ago

Good thing John Callaham stopped beating his wife. Classy response by Notch (ahem). But I do wished more developers would take such a principled stance.

chris_wot 14y ago
That doesn't work. There is no answer to the question "when did you stop beating your wife" except "I never started!"? Or if you are unmarried, just say "I don't have a wife".
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Yes, it doesn't withstand careful examination. It is almost as though that phrase were a joke...
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Depends on the context. Some times it is used as a joke, other times it highlights a loaded question.

ben0x539 14y ago

I appreciate notch's position on the whole thing, but I wish he didn't feel the need to make his point with rape jokes. (Edit: It's not made with rape jokes anymore. Previously, it said "goat rapist", now it says "goat murderer", which is rather preferable to me.)

guelo 14y ago
Well, at least goat rape is a bunch of notches below human rape in awfulness.
- ben0x539 14y ago
  Sure. But goat rape jokes still contribute to an atmosphere where rape is treated as a joke.
  - verroq 14y ago
    Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?
    - ben0x539 14y ago
      I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it. I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape. That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.

rhplus 14y ago

When you have a multi-million selling game and a new platform comes along, you don't tell the world you're definitely going to port it. You wait for the 6 figure check to arrive and then port it. If it's 7 figures, you call it a platform exclusive.

eckyptang 14y ago
Yes we'll see how principled Notch is when they wave a fat cheque in front of him... Money is the divider between words and actions.
- kanamekun 14y ago
  Money is not a huge motivator for Notch... back in March of this year, he gave seven figures ($3 million) of his personal dividends to his fellow Mojang employees: http://www.develop-online.net/news/40013/Notch-gifts-3-million-to-Mojang-team http://www.develop-online.net/news/40013/Notch-gifts-3-milli... Given his taken on money — and that Notch has taken a very public stance against participating in helping to close the PC — it is very unlikely that a fat cheque would result in a change of his actions. Time will tell, I suppose.

prodigal_erik 14y ago

It does seem arbitrary that only Microsoft ought to treat their consumers like tool-using human beings.