4 ms·

This gets even more interesting when you realize many SSRIs are antibacterials.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
It gets less interesting when one notices that social animals are much more prone to depression. Inflammation and depression are linked. Infection causes inflammation. It doesn’t follow that depression is caused by infection.
- DANmode 1y ago
  Correct. It’s caused by inflammation, one of the causes being: detox inefficiency.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > It’s caused by inflammation No, it’s not. Depression can be influenced by inflammation. This thread is a good example of the GIGO pitfalls that researching with chatbots entails.
    - DANmode 1y ago
      Yeah, “linked to” is better than “caused by” here, for sure. Not often this kind of thing comes up on HN, so I was replying in haste at a stoplight! I’ll ignore the slight, which you should know better than.
      - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
        It seems pretty common for people to read "linked to" and interpret that as "caused by". It feels like media had kind of pushed that for a long time.
      - DANmode 1y ago
        Stopping back in, because I unironically came across someone's almost-surely AI assisted summary that does a better job than I have summarizing the processes being discussed: == === Why the Sick Get Sicker Most people think illness progresses because of pathogens, toxins, or genetics — but the deeper truth is that tension, stress, and breathing patterns control the trajectory of health more than anything else. When the body is stressed, the breath changes. When the breath changes, the lymph stagnates. When the lymph stagnates, toxins accumulate. When toxins accumulate, inflammation accelerates. And that is how sick becomes sicker. Here’s the breakdown: 1. Stress Immediately Changes Your Breathing Pattern When the nervous system senses stress — emotional, physical, mental, or energetic — breathing becomes: • shallow • rapid • high in the chest • tight in the ribs • limited in diaphragm expansion This cuts oxygen supply, raises cortisol, and signals the body to brace. Bracing = stagnation. 2. Your Breath Controls Your Lymphatic System The lymphatic system is the body’s drainage system, and it has no pump of its own. It relies entirely on: • diaphragmatic breathing • muscle movement • fascia softness • a calm nervous system Shallow breathing = no diaphragm movement. No diaphragm movement = lymph stagnation. When lymph stagnates: • waste can’t drain • toxins recirculate • inflammation builds • swelling increases • the immune system gets overwhelmed This is why people in long-term stress decline rapidly. 3. Chronic Tension Physically Constricts Detox Pathways Tension in the shoulders, neck, jaw, abdomen, and ribs acts like a clamp on the lymphatic system. Chronic tightness: • blocks lymph nodes • stiffens fascia • shuts down circulation • compresses nerves • restricts oxygen • slows detox The body becomes a closed loop where waste can’t leave — so it begins leaking into tissues, joints, and organs. This accelerates aging, pain, brain fog, and inflammation. 4. This Is the Progression From Sick → Sicker When breath + lymph + fascia are blocked: Phase 1 — Shallow breathing Fatigue, anxiety, tight chest, poor digestion. Phase 2 — Lymph stagnation Swelling, puffiness, inflammatory symptoms, chronic infections. Phase 3 — Detox recirculation Migrating symptoms, rashes, headaches, histamine issues, chemical sensitivity. Phase 4 — Systemic overload Autoimmune symptoms, mold sensitivity, debilitating fatigue, hormone disruption. It appears “mysterious,” but physiologically it is predictable.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        1y ago
  - purple_turtle 1y ago
    Can you link any evidence supporting this claim? This term sounds like a standard-issue woo.
    - DANmode 1y ago
      Replied to your other request too: see other comments, ask for what’s missing for you.
      - purple_turtle 1y ago
        Links to materials that would support your claim. And at least mention terms you used.
        DANmode 1y ago
        Do you not count depression as a mood disorder…? Do you often require people you’re chatting with to have three copies of the same conversation?
- Modified3019 1y ago
  I’m not quite following the previous conversation here, but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing. I’m not sure if it has a technical name or if it’s been rigorously studied, but it’s a common observation which even I’ve seen (and reported to growers I work for). A casual mention here: http://www.sheep101.info/201/behavior.html http://www.sheep101.info/201/behavior.html
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing It's one explanation of the phenomenon. I'm not remotely convinced by it, but that doesn't mean I think it's untrue. What I do think we can conclude is that we have no evidence depression is caused by infection. (Singularly and universally, as OP implies.) With higher confidence I believe I can conclude that interrogating chatbots designed to keep your attention is a poor way to resolve this.
    - DANmode 1y ago
      > we have no evidence depression is caused by infection Besides talking to patients and reading case files. You can wait another decade or three for someone to spend the money on a specific study that meets your individual criteria (I'm sure very high), for doing obvious things like: 1.) Treating known infections, testing for others, and 2.) Addressing nutritional gaps, as well as tracking circadian/endocrine, and nervous symptoms (which often intertwine with depression symptoms!) but I will not wait. I'd prefer to no longer be depressed, and/or unwell. So I'll do the obvious things – even if they're not obvious to you, yet.

It gets less interesting when one notices that social animals are much more prone to depression. Inflammation and depression are linked. Infection causes inflammation. It doesn’t follow that depression is caused by infection.

DANmode 1y ago
Correct. It’s caused by inflammation, one of the causes being: detox inefficiency.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > It’s caused by inflammation No, it’s not. Depression can be influenced by inflammation. This thread is a good example of the GIGO pitfalls that researching with chatbots entails.
  - DANmode 1y ago
    Yeah, “linked to” is better than “caused by” here, for sure. Not often this kind of thing comes up on HN, so I was replying in haste at a stoplight! I’ll ignore the slight, which you should know better than.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      It seems pretty common for people to read "linked to" and interpret that as "caused by". It feels like media had kind of pushed that for a long time.
    - DANmode 1y ago
      Stopping back in, because I unironically came across someone's almost-surely AI assisted summary that does a better job than I have summarizing the processes being discussed: == === Why the Sick Get Sicker Most people think illness progresses because of pathogens, toxins, or genetics — but the deeper truth is that tension, stress, and breathing patterns control the trajectory of health more than anything else. When the body is stressed, the breath changes. When the breath changes, the lymph stagnates. When the lymph stagnates, toxins accumulate. When toxins accumulate, inflammation accelerates. And that is how sick becomes sicker. Here’s the breakdown: 1. Stress Immediately Changes Your Breathing Pattern When the nervous system senses stress — emotional, physical, mental, or energetic — breathing becomes: • shallow • rapid • high in the chest • tight in the ribs • limited in diaphragm expansion This cuts oxygen supply, raises cortisol, and signals the body to brace. Bracing = stagnation. 2. Your Breath Controls Your Lymphatic System The lymphatic system is the body’s drainage system, and it has no pump of its own. It relies entirely on: • diaphragmatic breathing • muscle movement • fascia softness • a calm nervous system Shallow breathing = no diaphragm movement. No diaphragm movement = lymph stagnation. When lymph stagnates: • waste can’t drain • toxins recirculate • inflammation builds • swelling increases • the immune system gets overwhelmed This is why people in long-term stress decline rapidly. 3. Chronic Tension Physically Constricts Detox Pathways Tension in the shoulders, neck, jaw, abdomen, and ribs acts like a clamp on the lymphatic system. Chronic tightness: • blocks lymph nodes • stiffens fascia • shuts down circulation • compresses nerves • restricts oxygen • slows detox The body becomes a closed loop where waste can’t leave — so it begins leaking into tissues, joints, and organs. This accelerates aging, pain, brain fog, and inflammation. 4. This Is the Progression From Sick → Sicker When breath + lymph + fascia are blocked: Phase 1 — Shallow breathing Fatigue, anxiety, tight chest, poor digestion. Phase 2 — Lymph stagnation Swelling, puffiness, inflammatory symptoms, chronic infections. Phase 3 — Detox recirculation Migrating symptoms, rashes, headaches, histamine issues, chemical sensitivity. Phase 4 — Systemic overload Autoimmune symptoms, mold sensitivity, debilitating fatigue, hormone disruption. It appears “mysterious,” but physiologically it is predictable.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - 1y ago
- purple_turtle 1y ago
  Can you link any evidence supporting this claim? This term sounds like a standard-issue woo.
  - DANmode 1y ago
    Replied to your other request too: see other comments, ask for what’s missing for you.
    - purple_turtle 1y ago
      Links to materials that would support your claim. And at least mention terms you used.
      - DANmode 1y ago
        Do you not count depression as a mood disorder…? Do you often require people you’re chatting with to have three copies of the same conversation?
Modified3019 1y ago
I’m not quite following the previous conversation here, but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing. I’m not sure if it has a technical name or if it’s been rigorously studied, but it’s a common observation which even I’ve seen (and reported to growers I work for). A casual mention here: http://www.sheep101.info/201/behavior.html http://www.sheep101.info/201/behavior.html
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing It's one explanation of the phenomenon. I'm not remotely convinced by it, but that doesn't mean I think it's untrue. What I do think we can conclude is that we have no evidence depression is caused by infection. (Singularly and universally, as OP implies.) With higher confidence I believe I can conclude that interrogating chatbots designed to keep your attention is a poor way to resolve this.
  - DANmode 1y ago
    > we have no evidence depression is caused by infection Besides talking to patients and reading case files. You can wait another decade or three for someone to spend the money on a specific study that meets your individual criteria (I'm sure very high), for doing obvious things like: 1.) Treating known infections, testing for others, and 2.) Addressing nutritional gaps, as well as tracking circadian/endocrine, and nervous symptoms (which often intertwine with depression symptoms!) but I will not wait. I'd prefer to no longer be depressed, and/or unwell. So I'll do the obvious things – even if they're not obvious to you, yet.