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Officers are licensed professionals. Doctors carry insurance. Engineers carry insurance. Teachers carry legal insurance, too. Sometimes the employer is also fin

by cestith 11mo ago

Officers are licensed professionals. Doctors carry insurance. Engineers carry insurance. Teachers carry legal insurance, too. Sometimes the employer is also financially liable for damages, but not solely. Yet the police tend to let a city or county pay the bill instead of the officer, the department, or the union even when the officer is well outside of training and policy.

awesome_dude 11mo ago
"Sometimes" "Tend to" Do you have any citeable evidence of this being an actual thing, or is it just vibes?
- sleepybrett 11mo ago
  Almost every small business carries insurance.
- lobf 11mo ago
  >Do you have any citeable evidence of this being an actual thing, or is it just vibes? Are you really unaware of city settlements for police misconduct? Let me turn the question around- can you name a single example of a police department, union, or office paying out a settlement? Has it ever happened?
  - awesome_dude 11mo ago
    First of all - I said something different to what you are claiming I should produce citations for I said, and I will quote "If the officer is acting within the policy/training they are given by their employer (and that includes not being told to not do something) then it's the employer's fault, and we (the taxpayer/ultimate employer) are liable for that." Citation: https://lawrencekstimes.com/2023/03/01/tran-case-settles/ https://lawrencekstimes.com/2023/03/01/tran-case-settles/ Tran’s criminal case was prosecuted under former DA Branson’s administration; however, it has impacted the policies of District Attorney Suzanne Valdez, who took office in January 2021. The DA’s office did not have a formal, written Brady-Giglio policy until Valdez implemented hers in January 2022. Valdez’s Brady-Giglio policy asks law enforcement agencies to share information about “allegations” of misconduct made against their officers — not just “findings” of misconduct. I wanted a citation of "even when the officer is well outside training and policy" Because I cannot find any such occurrence As to your demand for me to cite things that I never spoke of there are the following cases (the ones I have highlighted indicate that not just the city were liable, meaning that officers/unions/insurance also paid out) https://policefundingdatabase.org/explore-the-database/settlements/ https://policefundingdatabase.org/explore-the-database/settl... > In November 2023, a settlement was reached between protester Eli Durand-McDonnell and two police officers who arrested him during a demonstration outside the summer home of Leonard Leo, a leader of the Federalist Society. Police arrested Durand-McDonnell in July 2022 on a disorderly conduct charge amid protests over Leo’s role in efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Hancock County district attorney later dismissed the charge, citing the need for caution when political speech is involved. Durand-McDonnell subsequently filed a federal lawsuit against Officer Kevin Edgecomb and Officer Nathan Formby, alleging false arrest and violation of his free speech rights. Details of the settlement were not publicly available as of early November 2023. > The family of Fanta Bility, an eight-year-old girl who was fatally shot by police outside a high school football game in 2021, reached an $11 million settlement with the Borough of Sharon Hill, Pennsylvania, as well as its police chief and three former officers involved. Police opened fire after a verbal altercation between teens escalated into a gunfight. Police gunfire inadvertently struck Bility and injured three others, including her twelve-year-old sister. Officers Brian Devaney, Sean Dolan, and Devon Smith were fired and later sentenced to probation, pleading guilty to reckless endangerment. As part of the settlement, Sharon Hill agreed to implement enhanced officer training, particularly concerning the use of deadly force. The Bility family, who established the Fanta Bility Foundation to honor her legacy and advocate for police reform, emphasized that no settlement could erase the tragedy but expressed hope for healing and change. [Not a payout] > In April 2023, as part of a settlement in a class action lawsuit over the treatment of demonstrators in 2020, former Minneapolis, Minnesota, police union head Lieutenant Bob Kroll agreed he would not work as a police officer or law enforcement leader in Hennepin, Ramsey, or Anoka counties during the next decade. The lawsuit alleged that Kroll’s actions as a de facto policymaker led police to use excessive force against demonstrators in the protests that followed the May 2020 murder of George Floyd by a Minneapolis Police Department officer. Under the terms of the settlement, Kroll also agreed that he would not serve on the Minnesota Board of Peace Officer Standards and Training, and that he would testify in any trials related to the suit. And, because people are saying "insurance will pay it" > In February 2023, the insurance carrier of the City of Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, agreed to pay $2 million to Clinton Jones Sr., whose son was fatally shot by an undercover police officer. In 2015, then-Officer Nouman Raja shot and killed Corey Jones after his car broke down on an Interstate 95 off-ramp. Jones was on the phone with roadside assistance at the time of the shooting, and the recorded call revealed that Raja never identified himself as a police officer. Raja was found guilty of manslaughter and attempted murder in a separate criminal case in 2019 and received a twenty-five-year prison sentence.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
    - cestith 11mo ago
      Sentencing someone for crimes and them paying their own financial liabilities are two different things. Are you saying the handful of settlements that include officers form the majority of funds paid to victims of bad policing?
      - awesome_dude 11mo ago
        It's good to see the goalposts being shifted so wildly by yourself and others. I was asked for citations, and I delivered (Which you haven't by the way).
        anonym29 11mo ago
        When lobf posed the question "can you name a single example of a police department, union, or office paying out a settlement? Has it ever happened?", I read that as a rhetorical question that was meant to point out that an overwhelming majority of such cases are paid out by taxpayers, not a serious assertion that police officers themselves have never been held personally financially accountable a single time. Would you at least acknowledge that US taxpayers are on the hook orders of magnitude more often then the offending officers themselves, and that there's a clear conflict of interest presented by this de-facto outcome? Yes, there are exceptions, as you've diligently pointed out, but those are noteworthy because they are the exceptions that prove the general rule of thumb. Do you know of any US taxpayer who would explicitly, voluntarily, and freely offer to pay for the settlements resulting from the abusive, corrupt, or criminal conduct of police officers in their town, if that were an optional choice that every US taxpayer made distinctly from the implicit, collective choice to comply with public taxation to fund public services writ large? If every city in the US had a ballot measure in the next election that allowed citizens to vote on whether they would voluntarily accept personal financial responsibility for the misconduct of their police department, OR, mandate that all future settlements come out of the police union / pension fund / guilty officers' personal finances, how do you think those votes would tend to go, across the country?
- cestith 11mo ago
  Read about literally any lawsuit against police violating civil rights. Who pays the judgment?
  - awesome_dude 11mo ago
    Oh hello person that cannot read, and wants to shift the goalposts whilst they are at it. We, the taxpayers, are the ultimate employers, we, the taxpayers, are liable for the things that we the taxpayers ask to be done on our behalf (policing) We, the voters asked for laws that protect civil rights We, the taxpayers asked police to enforce those laws We, the voters demanded that people whose civil rights are violated be compensated fairly We, the taxpayers/voters chose people that didn't do the job properly (including training) It's not magic, the governments (at all levels) are there because we put them there, and we told them what we wanted to do (and we voted for the ones that do/do not do what we asked of them, including setting up the systems that do the things) Your complaint is that the systems YOU vote for are ... doing their job

by cestith 11mo ago

awesome_dude 11mo ago

"Sometimes" "Tend to" Do you have any citeable evidence of this being an actual thing, or is it just vibes?

sleepybrett 11mo ago
Almost every small business carries insurance.
lobf 11mo ago
>Do you have any citeable evidence of this being an actual thing, or is it just vibes? Are you really unaware of city settlements for police misconduct? Let me turn the question around- can you name a single example of a police department, union, or office paying out a settlement? Has it ever happened?
- awesome_dude 11mo ago
  First of all - I said something different to what you are claiming I should produce citations for I said, and I will quote "If the officer is acting within the policy/training they are given by their employer (and that includes not being told to not do something) then it's the employer's fault, and we (the taxpayer/ultimate employer) are liable for that." Citation: https://lawrencekstimes.com/2023/03/01/tran-case-settles/ https://lawrencekstimes.com/2023/03/01/tran-case-settles/ Tran’s criminal case was prosecuted under former DA Branson’s administration; however, it has impacted the policies of District Attorney Suzanne Valdez, who took office in January 2021. The DA’s office did not have a formal, written Brady-Giglio policy until Valdez implemented hers in January 2022. Valdez’s Brady-Giglio policy asks law enforcement agencies to share information about “allegations” of misconduct made against their officers — not just “findings” of misconduct. I wanted a citation of "even when the officer is well outside training and policy" Because I cannot find any such occurrence As to your demand for me to cite things that I never spoke of there are the following cases (the ones I have highlighted indicate that not just the city were liable, meaning that officers/unions/insurance also paid out) https://policefundingdatabase.org/explore-the-database/settlements/ https://policefundingdatabase.org/explore-the-database/settl... > In November 2023, a settlement was reached between protester Eli Durand-McDonnell and two police officers who arrested him during a demonstration outside the summer home of Leonard Leo, a leader of the Federalist Society. Police arrested Durand-McDonnell in July 2022 on a disorderly conduct charge amid protests over Leo’s role in efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Hancock County district attorney later dismissed the charge, citing the need for caution when political speech is involved. Durand-McDonnell subsequently filed a federal lawsuit against Officer Kevin Edgecomb and Officer Nathan Formby, alleging false arrest and violation of his free speech rights. Details of the settlement were not publicly available as of early November 2023. > The family of Fanta Bility, an eight-year-old girl who was fatally shot by police outside a high school football game in 2021, reached an $11 million settlement with the Borough of Sharon Hill, Pennsylvania, as well as its police chief and three former officers involved. Police opened fire after a verbal altercation between teens escalated into a gunfight. Police gunfire inadvertently struck Bility and injured three others, including her twelve-year-old sister. Officers Brian Devaney, Sean Dolan, and Devon Smith were fired and later sentenced to probation, pleading guilty to reckless endangerment. As part of the settlement, Sharon Hill agreed to implement enhanced officer training, particularly concerning the use of deadly force. The Bility family, who established the Fanta Bility Foundation to honor her legacy and advocate for police reform, emphasized that no settlement could erase the tragedy but expressed hope for healing and change. [Not a payout] > In April 2023, as part of a settlement in a class action lawsuit over the treatment of demonstrators in 2020, former Minneapolis, Minnesota, police union head Lieutenant Bob Kroll agreed he would not work as a police officer or law enforcement leader in Hennepin, Ramsey, or Anoka counties during the next decade. The lawsuit alleged that Kroll’s actions as a de facto policymaker led police to use excessive force against demonstrators in the protests that followed the May 2020 murder of George Floyd by a Minneapolis Police Department officer. Under the terms of the settlement, Kroll also agreed that he would not serve on the Minnesota Board of Peace Officer Standards and Training, and that he would testify in any trials related to the suit. And, because people are saying "insurance will pay it" > In February 2023, the insurance carrier of the City of Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, agreed to pay $2 million to Clinton Jones Sr., whose son was fatally shot by an undercover police officer. In 2015, then-Officer Nouman Raja shot and killed Corey Jones after his car broke down on an Interstate 95 off-ramp. Jones was on the phone with roadside assistance at the time of the shooting, and the recorded call revealed that Raja never identified himself as a police officer. Raja was found guilty of manslaughter and attempted murder in a separate criminal case in 2019 and received a twenty-five-year prison sentence.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - cestith 11mo ago
    Sentencing someone for crimes and them paying their own financial liabilities are two different things. Are you saying the handful of settlements that include officers form the majority of funds paid to victims of bad policing?
    - awesome_dude 11mo ago
      It's good to see the goalposts being shifted so wildly by yourself and others. I was asked for citations, and I delivered (Which you haven't by the way).
      - anonym29 11mo ago
        When lobf posed the question "can you name a single example of a police department, union, or office paying out a settlement? Has it ever happened?", I read that as a rhetorical question that was meant to point out that an overwhelming majority of such cases are paid out by taxpayers, not a serious assertion that police officers themselves have never been held personally financially accountable a single time. Would you at least acknowledge that US taxpayers are on the hook orders of magnitude more often then the offending officers themselves, and that there's a clear conflict of interest presented by this de-facto outcome? Yes, there are exceptions, as you've diligently pointed out, but those are noteworthy because they are the exceptions that prove the general rule of thumb. Do you know of any US taxpayer who would explicitly, voluntarily, and freely offer to pay for the settlements resulting from the abusive, corrupt, or criminal conduct of police officers in their town, if that were an optional choice that every US taxpayer made distinctly from the implicit, collective choice to comply with public taxation to fund public services writ large? If every city in the US had a ballot measure in the next election that allowed citizens to vote on whether they would voluntarily accept personal financial responsibility for the misconduct of their police department, OR, mandate that all future settlements come out of the police union / pension fund / guilty officers' personal finances, how do you think those votes would tend to go, across the country?
cestith 11mo ago
Read about literally any lawsuit against police violating civil rights. Who pays the judgment?
- awesome_dude 11mo ago
  Oh hello person that cannot read, and wants to shift the goalposts whilst they are at it. We, the taxpayers, are the ultimate employers, we, the taxpayers, are liable for the things that we the taxpayers ask to be done on our behalf (policing) We, the voters asked for laws that protect civil rights We, the taxpayers asked police to enforce those laws We, the voters demanded that people whose civil rights are violated be compensated fairly We, the taxpayers/voters chose people that didn't do the job properly (including training) It's not magic, the governments (at all levels) are there because we put them there, and we told them what we wanted to do (and we voted for the ones that do/do not do what we asked of them, including setting up the systems that do the things) Your complaint is that the systems YOU vote for are ... doing their job