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The biggest hurdle Europe has to face is the cultural shift away from the post-soviet era of "Don't take work too seriously, enjoy life". There is now a full g

The biggest hurdle Europe has to face is the cultural shift away from the post-soviet era of "Don't take work too seriously, enjoy life". There is now a full generation of Europeans who grew up in with this mentality, looking down on Americans for their ridiculous work ethic and comparatively meager benefits. But it's not sustainable, and the strain is already becoming obvious. Young Europeans will have to work longer and harder for less if they want to move Europe away from being totally dependent on American tech, American defense, and Chinese wares.

kryptoncalm 11mo ago
The data [0] begs to differ: in richer countries workers and fewer hours. The gap not shown here is working hours per capita (instead of worker), but I couldn’t find that data quickly. Also, even if your claim were true, I wonder if joining the rate race of working harder is worth it. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/rich-poor-working-hours https://ourworldindata.org/rich-poor-working-hours
- Workaccount2 11mo ago
  Joining the rat race isn't worth it, in the near-term, which is why the threat is existential. Europe has been sleeping on it's laurels for 30 years now, and the signs are clear; borderline stagnating economies, low working hours, generous benefits, and most importantly still relying on the exact same industries as 30 years ago. Europe totally missed out on the tech boom, and is now also missing out on the AI boom. And Europeans response has largely been "Whats the issue, we can just buy it from the Americans/Chinese?". Russsia invading Ukraine, and the US providing the majority of the weapons and cash to stave off Putin should have been a gut-punch wake up call that Europe is in an extremely vulnerable position, and needs to get to work building their own modern tech, their own defense, and their own industry. Failure to do those things will lead to Europe balkanizing as the economic situation gets worse under the weight of an aging population and shrinking economic output. Young Europeans think they cracked the code of comfortable living, but really they are just in a post-cold war golden period. Very similar to the post-WII era American baby boomers enjoyed (except they had lots of children). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a... Look at the bottom of the list and then go look at their growth.
  - epolanski 11mo ago
    > Look at the bottom Also look at the top ;) > Russsia invading Ukraine, and the US providing the majority of the weapons and cash That's beyond false, US provided little non-military help, the money mostly stayed in US and went to US contractors. I don't need to tell you that those figures are also insanely inflated by crazy costs. Zelenski himself has stated that he proposed multiple times to, e.g., send its navy to US ports to take the weapons so US taxpayers wouldn't have to bear the costs, but instead tens of billions went into that expense. Why? Because US support to Ukraine is a welfare machine for US contractors. In total EU has provided around 3 times more between military and non-military. https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-support-tracker-data-6453 https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-support-tra...
    - ta9000 11mo ago
      [dead]
    - Workaccount2 11mo ago
      There is a reason they wrote this article: https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-aid-how-europe-can-replace-us-support-17993/ https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-aid-how-eur... But people at the ammo factory are going to have to work more than 4 days a week with 8 weeks vacation.
- itake 11mo ago
  I think your data agrees with OP, you're just misunderstanding it. Yes, richer countries work few hours and richer countries also see modest GDP growth. Cambodia's GDP growth is over +5% YoY, whereas Switzerland (and the rest of Europe) has more modest GDP growth. There is some "Work smart, not hard." facet to this, which requires an educated population. The other fascet is developing countries exist in climates heavily impacted by global warming (look at flooding in VN or TH this year). They make 2 steps forward, and then 3 steps back when a monsoon takes out an entire town. > Also, even if your claim were true, I wonder if joining the rate race of working harder is worth it. Personally, employment makes my life interesting and rewarding. I love the puzzles (and compensation) that my employer provides. The rewards compound, but in career development and via investing the profits. Unfortunately, I think the one area that isn't accounted for is child care. Societies (rich and poor) continue to extract time away from parenting, via cost of housing near job centers and dual-income families. Offering an extra month of vacation or 4-day work week isn't the same as 1 income household or the parents living 15 minutes from their job.
  - moooo99 11mo ago
    > richer countries also see modest GDP growth. This is a natural consequence of being an industrially advanced country though. A lot of GDP growth can come from establishing basic services like a functioning healthcare system, insurance apparatus and financial system. Of course, we can't building out infrastructure like roads, power, etc. Especially construction can lead to substantial GDP growth, but once you have a basic set of infrastructure and housing in place, growth is much slower and consistent for very obvious reasons. Once you have that stuff in place, getting consistent growth requires more advanced stuff. The US is very much an outlier and attributing that soley to a difference in work ethic is ignorant at best.
    - Workaccount2 11mo ago
      >The US is very much an outlier and attributing that soley to a difference in work ethic is ignorant at best. Right, Europe also has a suffocating business environment which is the primary driver.
    - 11mo ago
evrenesat 11mo ago
IMHO, the US and China’s hurry to expand into every possible corner is unsustainable. Unless we are actually trying to get ready to face an extraterrestrial threat, our endless effort to maximize our tech and become more and more efficient and profitable is unneeded and puts too much stress on earthlings, which is definitely not sustainable. Do you really believe that when we are able to pass production of almost anything to AI and robots and give generous UBI to each and every person, they will be happy and satisfied? It is a dead end, a loss of meaning that we are racing to reach ASAP. Population collapse cannot be a good enough reason, either. Older people won't be happier if their servants are robots instead of climate migrants.
- samsepi01 11mo ago
  Maybe so. In the meantime, Europe will continue to fall behind economically.
- itake 11mo ago
  The standard of living in China is bad for most people. IMHO, they need to expand in order to provide the same lifestyle as offered in the USA. This has the energy of "Why are we building rockets to the moon, when there are homeless people in San Francisco"-vibes?" > give generous UBI to each and every person Have you seen the movie Wall-e? I don't think society should strive to outsource all labor to AI and robots, nor is that the final end-state of building robots and AI.
immibis 11mo ago
We could just, like, not give billionaires so much money, and there will be more left for everyone else. Yeah, if we want to be the world superpower we have to work really hard. But we definitely won't get any of the benefits of being the world superpower - just like Americans don't already - all of it accrues to billionaires. And it'll make the rent really high. So why should we want that? Of course, we don't want anyone else to be a world superpower either, because kings/dictators/emperors are bad.

kryptoncalm 11mo ago

The data [0] begs to differ: in richer countries workers and fewer hours. The gap not shown here is working hours per capita (instead of worker), but I couldn’t find that data quickly. Also, even if your claim were true, I wonder if joining the rate race of working harder is worth it. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/rich-poor-working-hours https://ourworldindata.org/rich-poor-working-hours

Workaccount2 11mo ago
Joining the rat race isn't worth it, in the near-term, which is why the threat is existential. Europe has been sleeping on it's laurels for 30 years now, and the signs are clear; borderline stagnating economies, low working hours, generous benefits, and most importantly still relying on the exact same industries as 30 years ago. Europe totally missed out on the tech boom, and is now also missing out on the AI boom. And Europeans response has largely been "Whats the issue, we can just buy it from the Americans/Chinese?". Russsia invading Ukraine, and the US providing the majority of the weapons and cash to stave off Putin should have been a gut-punch wake up call that Europe is in an extremely vulnerable position, and needs to get to work building their own modern tech, their own defense, and their own industry. Failure to do those things will lead to Europe balkanizing as the economic situation gets worse under the weight of an aging population and shrinking economic output. Young Europeans think they cracked the code of comfortable living, but really they are just in a post-cold war golden period. Very similar to the post-WII era American baby boomers enjoyed (except they had lots of children). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a... Look at the bottom of the list and then go look at their growth.
- epolanski 11mo ago
  > Look at the bottom Also look at the top ;) > Russsia invading Ukraine, and the US providing the majority of the weapons and cash That's beyond false, US provided little non-military help, the money mostly stayed in US and went to US contractors. I don't need to tell you that those figures are also insanely inflated by crazy costs. Zelenski himself has stated that he proposed multiple times to, e.g., send its navy to US ports to take the weapons so US taxpayers wouldn't have to bear the costs, but instead tens of billions went into that expense. Why? Because US support to Ukraine is a welfare machine for US contractors. In total EU has provided around 3 times more between military and non-military. https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-support-tracker-data-6453 https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-support-tra...
  - ta9000 11mo ago
    [dead]
  - Workaccount2 11mo ago
    There is a reason they wrote this article: https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-aid-how-europe-can-replace-us-support-17993/ https://www.kielinstitut.de/publications/ukraine-aid-how-eur... But people at the ammo factory are going to have to work more than 4 days a week with 8 weeks vacation.
itake 11mo ago
I think your data agrees with OP, you're just misunderstanding it. Yes, richer countries work few hours and richer countries also see modest GDP growth. Cambodia's GDP growth is over +5% YoY, whereas Switzerland (and the rest of Europe) has more modest GDP growth. There is some "Work smart, not hard." facet to this, which requires an educated population. The other fascet is developing countries exist in climates heavily impacted by global warming (look at flooding in VN or TH this year). They make 2 steps forward, and then 3 steps back when a monsoon takes out an entire town. > Also, even if your claim were true, I wonder if joining the rate race of working harder is worth it. Personally, employment makes my life interesting and rewarding. I love the puzzles (and compensation) that my employer provides. The rewards compound, but in career development and via investing the profits. Unfortunately, I think the one area that isn't accounted for is child care. Societies (rich and poor) continue to extract time away from parenting, via cost of housing near job centers and dual-income families. Offering an extra month of vacation or 4-day work week isn't the same as 1 income household or the parents living 15 minutes from their job.
- moooo99 11mo ago
  > richer countries also see modest GDP growth. This is a natural consequence of being an industrially advanced country though. A lot of GDP growth can come from establishing basic services like a functioning healthcare system, insurance apparatus and financial system. Of course, we can't building out infrastructure like roads, power, etc. Especially construction can lead to substantial GDP growth, but once you have a basic set of infrastructure and housing in place, growth is much slower and consistent for very obvious reasons. Once you have that stuff in place, getting consistent growth requires more advanced stuff. The US is very much an outlier and attributing that soley to a difference in work ethic is ignorant at best.
  - Workaccount2 11mo ago
    >The US is very much an outlier and attributing that soley to a difference in work ethic is ignorant at best. Right, Europe also has a suffocating business environment which is the primary driver.
  - 11mo ago

evrenesat 11mo ago

IMHO, the US and China’s hurry to expand into every possible corner is unsustainable. Unless we are actually trying to get ready to face an extraterrestrial threat, our endless effort to maximize our tech and become more and more efficient and profitable is unneeded and puts too much stress on earthlings, which is definitely not sustainable. Do you really believe that when we are able to pass production of almost anything to AI and robots and give generous UBI to each and every person, they will be happy and satisfied? It is a dead end, a loss of meaning that we are racing to reach ASAP. Population collapse cannot be a good enough reason, either. Older people won't be happier if their servants are robots instead of climate migrants.

samsepi01 11mo ago
Maybe so. In the meantime, Europe will continue to fall behind economically.
itake 11mo ago
The standard of living in China is bad for most people. IMHO, they need to expand in order to provide the same lifestyle as offered in the USA. This has the energy of "Why are we building rockets to the moon, when there are homeless people in San Francisco"-vibes?" > give generous UBI to each and every person Have you seen the movie Wall-e? I don't think society should strive to outsource all labor to AI and robots, nor is that the final end-state of building robots and AI.

immibis 11mo ago

We could just, like, not give billionaires so much money, and there will be more left for everyone else. Yeah, if we want to be the world superpower we have to work really hard. But we definitely won't get any of the benefits of being the world superpower - just like Americans don't already - all of it accrues to billionaires. And it'll make the rent really high. So why should we want that? Of course, we don't want anyone else to be a world superpower either, because kings/dictators/emperors are bad.