5 ms·

Then it should be striped, the same way Crimea is.

by kykat 11mo ago

maratc 11mo ago
Should Mongolia be striped too? ROC does not officially recognise Mongolia's sovereignty. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_a... I'll add that most of the "Internet's supporters of Taiwan independence" not only do not live in Taiwan, they have never even visited there -- if they did, they would know that even most of Taiwan's population consider Taiwan and (mainland) China to be one entity. And mainland China mostly agrees with that -- where they disagree is what is the political entity that should govern this territory.
- kykat 11mo ago
  Great straw man argument you got there, please tell me more about my life, I'm sure you know all about it
- kykat 11mo ago
  I'm sure that you can see in the map that there's "free are of the republic of china", which wasn't represented in the map, which was the point I raised originally. I never mentioned taiwan independence, you twist the facts and my word for your political agenda.
- School-Cotton 11mo ago
  > most of Taiwan's population consider Taiwan and (mainland) China to be one entity I very much doubt this is true — post a source, if you’ve got one
  - maratc 11mo ago
    My experience is a personal one -- a couple of jobs ago I was travelling extensively to Taiwan (on a multi-year ROC visa) and had lots of conversations with people. I can offer a link to ROC constitution (above): > Because the ROC constitution is, at least nominally, the constitution of all China, the amendments avoided any specific reference to the Taiwan area ... Or this passage: > The position of the PRC and the KMT in Taiwan remains that there is only one sovereign entity of China, united and indivisible. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas#Current_situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas#Current_situation Or this passage: > Domestically, the major political contention is between the Pan-Blue Coalition, which favors eventual Chinese unification under the ROC and promoting a pan-Chinese identity, ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan Or this passage: > As of the 2008 election of President Ma Ying-jeou, the KMT agreed to the One China principle, but defined it as led by [ROC] rather than [PRC]. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_unification#Rise_of_the_Democratic_Progressive_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_unification#Rise_of_th... (KMT/Pan-Blue are the biggest party historically and currently, however Pan-Green were a majority recently.) Or this poll result: (2024) Independence as soon as possible 3.8% Maintain status quo, move toward independence 22.4% Maintain status quo, decide at a later date 27.3% Maintain status quo indefinitely 33.6% So about 60% are for doing nothing (either for now or forever), while 26% have expressed their preference for independence. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement#Opinion_polls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement#O...
    - School-Cotton 11mo ago
      Believing that China and Taiwan should be reunified is not the same as believing that they are, currently, one entity, which is what was originally claimed.
      - maratc 11mo ago
        I'm not certain what exactly you address as "what was originally claimed," however the world maps in both PRC and ROC show one China, not two, and I'm not certain why it should be a reason to disqualify TLA on the basis that "it fails to portray the current map accurately, by not to (sic) separating PRC and ROC."
        School-Cotton 11mo ago
        > the world maps in both PRC and ROC show one China, not two That is irrelevant. The map is not the territory. They are two countries in reality; that is, they operate as two separate sovereign countries in every practical way, regardless of what legal fictions are maintained for political reasons. This atlas is presumably supposed to be about reality, not about legal fictions. (BTW: North Korea and South Korea officially claimed to be one country until very recently, and South Korea still does. But every map in the outside world shows them as two. Why should China and Taiwan be treated differently?)
        maratc 11mo ago
        > They are two countries in reality It only looks like this from the West, where the support for independent Taiwan is much higher than in Taiwan itself (not to speak of PRC where it's non-existent.) People in Taiwan don't perceive China as a different country (the way that French perceive Germany for example) but rather as a different (unfortunate) regime over the same nation. > This atlas is presumably supposed to be about reality, not about legal fictions. With the current reality in east Ukraine/Georgia/Northern Cyprus/Israel-Palestine/Kosovo/etc.etc.etc., I'm not sure if it's ever possible to get a map that will satisfy everybody, as what is "legal fiction" to you might be "internationally recognised borders" for someone else.
  - maratc 11mo ago
    Speaking of sources, this was just submitted to HN: https://jonathancc.substack.com/p/while-eyes-are-on-takaichi-taiwans https://jonathancc.substack.com/p/while-eyes-are-on-takaichi... This goes along the lines of “how dare they apply a foreigner treatment to a mainlander, this is against the constitution.”

Then it should be striped, the same way Crimea is.

by kykat 11mo ago

Then it should be striped, the same way Crimea is.

maratc 11mo ago

Should Mongolia be striped too? ROC does not officially recognise Mongolia's sovereignty. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_a... I'll add that most of the "Internet's supporters of Taiwan independence" not only do not live in Taiwan, they have never even visited there -- if they did, they would know that even most of Taiwan's population consider Taiwan and (mainland) China to be one entity. And mainland China mostly agrees with that -- where they disagree is what is the political entity that should govern this territory.

kykat 11mo ago
Great straw man argument you got there, please tell me more about my life, I'm sure you know all about it
kykat 11mo ago
I'm sure that you can see in the map that there's "free are of the republic of china", which wasn't represented in the map, which was the point I raised originally. I never mentioned taiwan independence, you twist the facts and my word for your political agenda.
School-Cotton 11mo ago
> most of Taiwan's population consider Taiwan and (mainland) China to be one entity I very much doubt this is true — post a source, if you’ve got one
- maratc 11mo ago
  My experience is a personal one -- a couple of jobs ago I was travelling extensively to Taiwan (on a multi-year ROC visa) and had lots of conversations with people. I can offer a link to ROC constitution (above): > Because the ROC constitution is, at least nominally, the constitution of all China, the amendments avoided any specific reference to the Taiwan area ... Or this passage: > The position of the PRC and the KMT in Taiwan remains that there is only one sovereign entity of China, united and indivisible. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas#Current_situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas#Current_situation Or this passage: > Domestically, the major political contention is between the Pan-Blue Coalition, which favors eventual Chinese unification under the ROC and promoting a pan-Chinese identity, ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan Or this passage: > As of the 2008 election of President Ma Ying-jeou, the KMT agreed to the One China principle, but defined it as led by [ROC] rather than [PRC]. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_unification#Rise_of_the_Democratic_Progressive_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_unification#Rise_of_th... (KMT/Pan-Blue are the biggest party historically and currently, however Pan-Green were a majority recently.) Or this poll result: (2024) Independence as soon as possible 3.8% Maintain status quo, move toward independence 22.4% Maintain status quo, decide at a later date 27.3% Maintain status quo indefinitely 33.6% So about 60% are for doing nothing (either for now or forever), while 26% have expressed their preference for independence. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement#Opinion_polls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement#O...
  - School-Cotton 11mo ago
    Believing that China and Taiwan should be reunified is not the same as believing that they are, currently, one entity, which is what was originally claimed.
    - maratc 11mo ago
      I'm not certain what exactly you address as "what was originally claimed," however the world maps in both PRC and ROC show one China, not two, and I'm not certain why it should be a reason to disqualify TLA on the basis that "it fails to portray the current map accurately, by not to (sic) separating PRC and ROC."
      - School-Cotton 11mo ago
        > the world maps in both PRC and ROC show one China, not two That is irrelevant. The map is not the territory. They are two countries in reality; that is, they operate as two separate sovereign countries in every practical way, regardless of what legal fictions are maintained for political reasons. This atlas is presumably supposed to be about reality, not about legal fictions. (BTW: North Korea and South Korea officially claimed to be one country until very recently, and South Korea still does. But every map in the outside world shows them as two. Why should China and Taiwan be treated differently?)
        maratc 11mo ago
        > They are two countries in reality It only looks like this from the West, where the support for independent Taiwan is much higher than in Taiwan itself (not to speak of PRC where it's non-existent.) People in Taiwan don't perceive China as a different country (the way that French perceive Germany for example) but rather as a different (unfortunate) regime over the same nation. > This atlas is presumably supposed to be about reality, not about legal fictions. With the current reality in east Ukraine/Georgia/Northern Cyprus/Israel-Palestine/Kosovo/etc.etc.etc., I'm not sure if it's ever possible to get a map that will satisfy everybody, as what is "legal fiction" to you might be "internationally recognised borders" for someone else.
- maratc 11mo ago
  Speaking of sources, this was just submitted to HN: https://jonathancc.substack.com/p/while-eyes-are-on-takaichi-taiwans https://jonathancc.substack.com/p/while-eyes-are-on-takaichi... This goes along the lines of “how dare they apply a foreigner treatment to a mainlander, this is against the constitution.”