3 ms·

What I never get is: why not prepare to fork AOSP? I like the security model of AOSP :-).

by palata 1y ago

realusername 1y ago
Some people (like myself) prefer the desktop userland which is more familiar and works like you would expect as opposed to the android quirks. eOS is basically what you are looking for for most phones or GrapheneOS (pixel only)
charcircuit 1y ago
That's already happening today. https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ But for the reason an antiquated os like postmarketos are suggested is that the project is being opportunistic thinking this is a chance they can be relevant. Additionally, the population of HN has more sentimental view on these legacy operating systems and view it as a chance to go back to the past and use software they are familiar with.
- MYEUHD 1y ago
  > That's already happening today. That's not a hard fork. They always rebase on top of AOSP when there's a new AOSP source release
  - realusername 1y ago
    Nobody really want a hard fork, if you can't run Android apps, you might as well use a Linux distribution.
    - palata 1y ago
      Well the idea would be to run Android apps on the hard fork :-).
      - realusername 1y ago
        If you can run Android apps then you need the same behavior as AOSP or I'm missing something? If you don't rebase from AOSP, the apps won't run pretty quickly.
        palata 1y ago
        I actually wonder: if Google stopped pushing to AOSP and "the community" had to fork... the whole Android SDK/NDK is not open source, so I wonder if AOSP could survive at all without Google, even though it is open source.
        realusername 1y ago
        I think if Google would stop pushing AOSP, there's a very high risk for Google that a consortium of manufacturers would continue themselves as they need it and they would lose control.
        palata 1y ago
        Would they, though? Like Huawei forked for a while, and then they made their proprietary HarmonyOS. For a while I thought it was a missed opportunity to compete on a hard fork, but then I realised that Huawei probably cannot fork the Android SDK/NDK because it's not open source.
        charcircuit 1y ago
        I think that is unlikely reality because from manufacturers perspective they don't get AOSP from the public. They get it from their chip provider like Qualcomm who gets private releases from Google. Everything is already set up such that people aren't using the public version, so the more likely reality is that the public version goes away, and google partners keep doing what they are doing. Maybe things are different on the Chinese side of things. So if it were to be created, it would be over there.
  - charcircuit 1y ago
    It doesn't have to be. Most of Android is fine.
    - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
      Outside of China, to a first approximation no one once to use an Android device without Google Play Services.
      - palata 1y ago
        I would love to, for the record.
  - palata 1y ago
    There is no reason to hard fork, as long as Google contributes to AOSP without breaking it. Regulators in the US decided that Android did not have to be split from Google, but they could theoretically decide that Google is not allowed to break AOSP to gain a competitive advantage. Not that it would matter: TooBigTech is too powerful to care about regulations anyway.
- rcxdude 1y ago
  or they already have hardware which postmarketOS supports and grapheneOS does not (or they would just prefer that hardware)
- dugite-code 1y ago
  I really wanted to like Graphene OS but I ended up bouncing off it due to a few major pain points that badly effected battery life. - Using the default 5g setting resulted in far worse battery life than stock, telling people to choose 4g isn't a solution. They desperately need something like the adaptive connectivity service. - Using Homeassistant's GPS tracking feature just destroyed the battery life, even switching to 4g didn't solve this issue. Changing all the GPS settings didn't help either. - The obnoxious green GPS active icon makes the notification bar useless if using a GPS tracking app (or even gps navigation). The request for a whitelist was either ignored or rejected, the teams communication can come off a bit rough. No normal user is going to be happy with Grapheneos. From what I've seen postmarketos is much more user friendly.
  - palata 1y ago
    > No normal user is going to be happy with Grapheneos. I am a normal user, extremely happy with GrapheneOS. I just don't use HomeAssistant, which seems to have been your dealbreaker in this case. I genuinely don't see a difference between Stock Android and GrapheneOS, except that I get more updates and I have more privacy controls (like scopes, but honestly I haven't had a need to use them yet).
    - dugite-code 1y ago
      You are very fortunate for not hitting any edge cases, but sorry anyone commenting here typically isn't anywhere near to what you could call a "normal user". I ran into quite few minor issues with the enhanced security settings, my partner would never been able to figure out the solution to that issue and I consider them a normal user. Not to mention the 5g battery drain is a hard show stopper, not just Homeassistant issues. I even experimented with different apps like owntracks but same problem with GPS. I found a solution to the GPS icon but it requires an ADB command so not a great fix.
    - rs186 1y ago
      I'd wager nobody on HN is a normal user. If you know what AOSP is, you are already way too nerdy to qualify.
- m4rtink 1y ago
  How is Postmarket OS antiquated ? Its just a standard Linux distro (unlike anything Android based).
  - charcircuit 1y ago
    At least in regards to the security model, it is decades out of date. For example any app can listen to your microphone and spy on you at anytime. Programs can act as ransomeware or destroy all of your files. Stealers can steal your login credentials and access tokens for all your sites including banking ones.
    - j45 1y ago
      Meaning, it's a way to keep old hardware running linux instead of being a phone.
    - zorked 1y ago
      I think people don't realize how inadequate the Unix security model is.
      - eikenberry 1y ago
        Linux doesn't solely rely on the Unix security model. Linux security is mostly based on trust, the trust of the distribution and its maintainers. But if you want to run random, untrusted apps you'll want a different model. Linux is slowly addressing that need w/ a variety of different approaches which could be picked up and used for a mobile OS.
    - seba_dos1 1y ago
      ...except in virtually any case where you'd run something untrusted there you'd use Flatpak or something similar where what you wrote doesn't apply.
      - tom_alexander 1y ago
        > untrusted I think the important distinction is _everything_ should be considered untrusted because even trustworthy software can become malicious. For example, the XZ Utils backdoor[0]. On Android, everything I run is subject to the permission model and sandboxed. That is not the case on Linux. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor
- toastal 1y ago
  One of the other appeals of the Android ecosystem was a large selection of hardware for user-specific needs. GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixel phones which do not compare to the sorts of hardware postmarketOS or other Linux OS support.

What I never get is: why not prepare to fork AOSP? I like the security model of AOSP :-).

by palata 1y ago

What I never get is: why not prepare to fork AOSP? I like the security model of AOSP :-).

Some people (like myself) prefer the desktop userland which is more familiar and works like you would expect as opposed to the android quirks. eOS is basically what you are looking for for most phones or GrapheneOS (pixel only)

charcircuit 1y ago

That's already happening today. https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ But for the reason an antiquated os like postmarketos are suggested is that the project is being opportunistic thinking this is a chance they can be relevant. Additionally, the population of HN has more sentimental view on these legacy operating systems and view it as a chance to go back to the past and use software they are familiar with.

MYEUHD 1y ago
> That's already happening today. That's not a hard fork. They always rebase on top of AOSP when there's a new AOSP source release
- realusername 1y ago
  Nobody really want a hard fork, if you can't run Android apps, you might as well use a Linux distribution.
  - palata 1y ago
    Well the idea would be to run Android apps on the hard fork :-).
    - realusername 1y ago
      If you can run Android apps then you need the same behavior as AOSP or I'm missing something? If you don't rebase from AOSP, the apps won't run pretty quickly.
      - palata 1y ago
        I actually wonder: if Google stopped pushing to AOSP and "the community" had to fork... the whole Android SDK/NDK is not open source, so I wonder if AOSP could survive at all without Google, even though it is open source.
        realusername 1y ago
        I think if Google would stop pushing AOSP, there's a very high risk for Google that a consortium of manufacturers would continue themselves as they need it and they would lose control.
        palata 1y ago
        Would they, though? Like Huawei forked for a while, and then they made their proprietary HarmonyOS. For a while I thought it was a missed opportunity to compete on a hard fork, but then I realised that Huawei probably cannot fork the Android SDK/NDK because it's not open source.
        charcircuit 1y ago
        I think that is unlikely reality because from manufacturers perspective they don't get AOSP from the public. They get it from their chip provider like Qualcomm who gets private releases from Google. Everything is already set up such that people aren't using the public version, so the more likely reality is that the public version goes away, and google partners keep doing what they are doing. Maybe things are different on the Chinese side of things. So if it were to be created, it would be over there.
- charcircuit 1y ago
  It doesn't have to be. Most of Android is fine.
  - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
    Outside of China, to a first approximation no one once to use an Android device without Google Play Services.
    - palata 1y ago
      I would love to, for the record.
- palata 1y ago
  There is no reason to hard fork, as long as Google contributes to AOSP without breaking it. Regulators in the US decided that Android did not have to be split from Google, but they could theoretically decide that Google is not allowed to break AOSP to gain a competitive advantage. Not that it would matter: TooBigTech is too powerful to care about regulations anyway.
rcxdude 1y ago
or they already have hardware which postmarketOS supports and grapheneOS does not (or they would just prefer that hardware)
dugite-code 1y ago
I really wanted to like Graphene OS but I ended up bouncing off it due to a few major pain points that badly effected battery life. - Using the default 5g setting resulted in far worse battery life than stock, telling people to choose 4g isn't a solution. They desperately need something like the adaptive connectivity service. - Using Homeassistant's GPS tracking feature just destroyed the battery life, even switching to 4g didn't solve this issue. Changing all the GPS settings didn't help either. - The obnoxious green GPS active icon makes the notification bar useless if using a GPS tracking app (or even gps navigation). The request for a whitelist was either ignored or rejected, the teams communication can come off a bit rough. No normal user is going to be happy with Grapheneos. From what I've seen postmarketos is much more user friendly.
- palata 1y ago
  > No normal user is going to be happy with Grapheneos. I am a normal user, extremely happy with GrapheneOS. I just don't use HomeAssistant, which seems to have been your dealbreaker in this case. I genuinely don't see a difference between Stock Android and GrapheneOS, except that I get more updates and I have more privacy controls (like scopes, but honestly I haven't had a need to use them yet).
  - dugite-code 1y ago
    You are very fortunate for not hitting any edge cases, but sorry anyone commenting here typically isn't anywhere near to what you could call a "normal user". I ran into quite few minor issues with the enhanced security settings, my partner would never been able to figure out the solution to that issue and I consider them a normal user. Not to mention the 5g battery drain is a hard show stopper, not just Homeassistant issues. I even experimented with different apps like owntracks but same problem with GPS. I found a solution to the GPS icon but it requires an ADB command so not a great fix.
  - rs186 1y ago
    I'd wager nobody on HN is a normal user. If you know what AOSP is, you are already way too nerdy to qualify.
m4rtink 1y ago
How is Postmarket OS antiquated ? Its just a standard Linux distro (unlike anything Android based).
- charcircuit 1y ago
  At least in regards to the security model, it is decades out of date. For example any app can listen to your microphone and spy on you at anytime. Programs can act as ransomeware or destroy all of your files. Stealers can steal your login credentials and access tokens for all your sites including banking ones.
  - j45 1y ago
    Meaning, it's a way to keep old hardware running linux instead of being a phone.
  - zorked 1y ago
    I think people don't realize how inadequate the Unix security model is.
    - eikenberry 1y ago
      Linux doesn't solely rely on the Unix security model. Linux security is mostly based on trust, the trust of the distribution and its maintainers. But if you want to run random, untrusted apps you'll want a different model. Linux is slowly addressing that need w/ a variety of different approaches which could be picked up and used for a mobile OS.
  - seba_dos1 1y ago
    ...except in virtually any case where you'd run something untrusted there you'd use Flatpak or something similar where what you wrote doesn't apply.
    - tom_alexander 1y ago
      > untrusted I think the important distinction is _everything_ should be considered untrusted because even trustworthy software can become malicious. For example, the XZ Utils backdoor[0]. On Android, everything I run is subject to the permission model and sandboxed. That is not the case on Linux. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor
toastal 1y ago
One of the other appeals of the Android ecosystem was a large selection of hardware for user-specific needs. GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixel phones which do not compare to the sorts of hardware postmarketOS or other Linux OS support.