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The goal there is similar to why the US state department sponsored the Tor project. They want a democratic society in Russia, and they want the Russian people t

The goal there is similar to why the US state department sponsored the Tor project. They want a democratic society in Russia, and they want the Russian people to have friendly views of the west. The objective wasn't so much to teach them their ways, but to establish rapport with the journalism community in Russia. Journalists decide if for example Putin's power grabbing and dictatorship is covered as a negative or a positive thing. That rapport goes a long way with influencing their unavoidable bias. I think "influence" is correct, not "propaganda" unless there was specific messaging being disseminated. Also, look up "confucius institutes" all over the US and the world setup the Chinese government to do something similar.

suddenlybananas 11mo ago
>They want a democratic society in Russia They don't give a damn about democracy. There's a reason they stole plenty of elections across Europe and Latin America. Hell, they even helped steal the 1996 Russian election.
- gambiting 11mo ago
  Perhaps a more correct way of saying it is - "they"(and that's not just US who wants this) want a stable trading partner, because Russia has goods and resources we want to buy, and we have goods and services we want to sell to them. >>There's a reason they stole plenty of elections across Europe and Latin America And that is for the exact reason I mentioned above. With a democracy it's just much easier to make sure the government is alligned with you(look at American meddling in UK politics), with a tsar like Putin it's not, because at this point he's beyond bribery or red carpets rolled out for him. So sure, for now anyone with any kind of position of power will tell you that they would support democracy in Russia - because then there is hope normal trading relationships could be restored and money made. This isn't an excuse for it btw - I'm just stating the fact that US especially will pursue their own interest first and foremost, if democracy furthers those then they will support it, if it doesn't then they will not.
  - suddenlybananas 11mo ago
    Yes of course, they want things in their own interest, democracy is entirely orthogonal to that.
  - notepad0x90 11mo ago
    > Perhaps a more correct way of saying it is - "they"(and that's not just US who wants this) want a stable trading partner, because Russia has goods and resources we want to buy, and we have goods and services we want to sell to them. I would say that's partly true, but Russia doesn't have much you can't get elsewhere, other than maybe oil? Not having to fight wars with russia seems to be the overarching goal (proxy, cold or any other type of 'war'). > This isn't an excuse for it btw - I'm just stating the fact that US especially will pursue their own interest first and foremost, if democracy furthers those then they will support it, if it doesn't then they will not. Yes, as it should. I don't know why people expect the US to be some beacon of global morality or democracy. First and foremost, the people of the US expect their government to protect their security and economic prosperity, we don't car as much about our "image".
    - gambiting 11mo ago
      >> I don't know why people expect the US to be some beacon of global morality or democracy I think I can answer that - because growing up(not in the US) United States of America were that paragon of well, everything. Everyone wanted to move there eventually, everything about US was the best, best books, films, technology, women(yes, I know), jobs, sights, cities etc etc. For better or worse America has managed to inspire millions of kids around the globe to see it as the best country in the world. Like, US were the good guys in every situation. If you heard about US going to war with someone, it was because they were right and the other side was wrong. And then we grew up and realized that most of it was just a lie. >>we don't car as much about our "image". Respectfully, if there is one thing that America does well it's caring about its image - the soft projection of power by export of its culture is one thing that no other country has been able to replicate anywhere near as well, maybe except for Japan. >>but Russia doesn't have much you can't get elsewhere, other than maybe oil You can get everything anywhere, but the point is that Russia has certain resources that it produces in huge quantities and cheaply. They are a leading producer of nickel, which obviously is incredibly important in various industries. They are the main producer of palladium, platinum, and one of the biggest producers of gold and diamonds. Plus they produce and export huge quantities of wood and coal. Obviously all of those things can be obtained elsewhere, but there is a reason why countries have been buying those things from Russia - they have a lot of it and they sell it cheap.
- pjc50 11mo ago
  > stole plenty of elections across Europe and Latin America. Hell, they even helped steal the 1996 Russian election. [citation needed]; I'm aware of all the Latin America badness, School of the Americas, Nicaragua, Allende, etc, but I don't know what you're referring to here and you do actually need to support claims of ballot rigging with evidence. But yes, this fundamental tension in American "state building" was being unable to handle cases when the foreign public wanted a democracy that wasn't run by and for the benefit of US corporations or right-wing Christians. You can see it propagating backwards now America has its own Pinochet.
littlecorner 11mo ago
Its the messy application of FDR's claim that the USA should be the arsenal of democracy and should protect people everywhere. Which sounds all well and good, until you get different ideas about what is the best and that 'I' know better than you. Basically all the mess of the Cold War and propaganda and advertising
- LtWorf 11mo ago
  USA is the arsenal of democracy as long as you vote their candidate (or all candidates are their candidate, like in Italy)

suddenlybananas 11mo ago

>They want a democratic society in Russia They don't give a damn about democracy. There's a reason they stole plenty of elections across Europe and Latin America. Hell, they even helped steal the 1996 Russian election.

gambiting 11mo ago
Perhaps a more correct way of saying it is - "they"(and that's not just US who wants this) want a stable trading partner, because Russia has goods and resources we want to buy, and we have goods and services we want to sell to them. >>There's a reason they stole plenty of elections across Europe and Latin America And that is for the exact reason I mentioned above. With a democracy it's just much easier to make sure the government is alligned with you(look at American meddling in UK politics), with a tsar like Putin it's not, because at this point he's beyond bribery or red carpets rolled out for him. So sure, for now anyone with any kind of position of power will tell you that they would support democracy in Russia - because then there is hope normal trading relationships could be restored and money made. This isn't an excuse for it btw - I'm just stating the fact that US especially will pursue their own interest first and foremost, if democracy furthers those then they will support it, if it doesn't then they will not.
- suddenlybananas 11mo ago
  Yes of course, they want things in their own interest, democracy is entirely orthogonal to that.
- notepad0x90 11mo ago
  > Perhaps a more correct way of saying it is - "they"(and that's not just US who wants this) want a stable trading partner, because Russia has goods and resources we want to buy, and we have goods and services we want to sell to them. I would say that's partly true, but Russia doesn't have much you can't get elsewhere, other than maybe oil? Not having to fight wars with russia seems to be the overarching goal (proxy, cold or any other type of 'war'). > This isn't an excuse for it btw - I'm just stating the fact that US especially will pursue their own interest first and foremost, if democracy furthers those then they will support it, if it doesn't then they will not. Yes, as it should. I don't know why people expect the US to be some beacon of global morality or democracy. First and foremost, the people of the US expect their government to protect their security and economic prosperity, we don't car as much about our "image".
  - gambiting 11mo ago
    >> I don't know why people expect the US to be some beacon of global morality or democracy I think I can answer that - because growing up(not in the US) United States of America were that paragon of well, everything. Everyone wanted to move there eventually, everything about US was the best, best books, films, technology, women(yes, I know), jobs, sights, cities etc etc. For better or worse America has managed to inspire millions of kids around the globe to see it as the best country in the world. Like, US were the good guys in every situation. If you heard about US going to war with someone, it was because they were right and the other side was wrong. And then we grew up and realized that most of it was just a lie. >>we don't car as much about our "image". Respectfully, if there is one thing that America does well it's caring about its image - the soft projection of power by export of its culture is one thing that no other country has been able to replicate anywhere near as well, maybe except for Japan. >>but Russia doesn't have much you can't get elsewhere, other than maybe oil You can get everything anywhere, but the point is that Russia has certain resources that it produces in huge quantities and cheaply. They are a leading producer of nickel, which obviously is incredibly important in various industries. They are the main producer of palladium, platinum, and one of the biggest producers of gold and diamonds. Plus they produce and export huge quantities of wood and coal. Obviously all of those things can be obtained elsewhere, but there is a reason why countries have been buying those things from Russia - they have a lot of it and they sell it cheap.
pjc50 11mo ago
> stole plenty of elections across Europe and Latin America. Hell, they even helped steal the 1996 Russian election. [citation needed]; I'm aware of all the Latin America badness, School of the Americas, Nicaragua, Allende, etc, but I don't know what you're referring to here and you do actually need to support claims of ballot rigging with evidence. But yes, this fundamental tension in American "state building" was being unable to handle cases when the foreign public wanted a democracy that wasn't run by and for the benefit of US corporations or right-wing Christians. You can see it propagating backwards now America has its own Pinochet.

littlecorner 11mo ago

Its the messy application of FDR's claim that the USA should be the arsenal of democracy and should protect people everywhere. Which sounds all well and good, until you get different ideas about what is the best and that 'I' know better than you. Basically all the mess of the Cold War and propaganda and advertising

LtWorf 11mo ago
USA is the arsenal of democracy as long as you vote their candidate (or all candidates are their candidate, like in Italy)