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My position is only hypocritical or contradictory under your unstated assumptions about how society works. You believe that cultures are fungible. You think tha

My position is only hypocritical or contradictory under your unstated assumptions about how society works. You believe that cultures are fungible. You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly. Since I don't accept your cultural relativism, then there is no contradiction in my view. Quite rationally, I want to live in the city founded on Dutch culture rather than the city founded in Bangladeshi culture. And there is nothing contradictory about moving to a place but opposing mass migration of people behind you that changes the character of the place that you found attractive to begin with. That's the mindset of literally everyone who moves to a quaint little town in the country.

ivraatiems 1y ago
You're correct that I think you're entirely wrong about how culture works, but that's not what I'm asking you about. My point is that under your rules and worldview, you should not have been allowed to come to the US, because you are from the "bad" culture. Why should an exception have been made for you? Why are you and your family special and different from everyone else in your home culture? Under your own rules, that makes no sense.
jacquesm 1y ago
> You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. Are you trying for some kind of world record in strawmen? If so this one should definitely be nominated.
- rayiner 1y ago
  You've cut off part of the hypo: "I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly." So when I say "the same" in the hypo, I mean "substantively the same" modulo superficial differences like food, clothing styles, architecture, etc. Does that clarification fix the hypo for you? If not, what part of the hypo do you think is inapt?
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    No, you can add whatever crap you want after that it is founded on something blatantly dishonest. And you are apparently in love with some aspects of dutch society while you ignore the fact that - just like in your country - we have a massive issue with racism, have a huge problem with drugs and drug related crime as well as with human trafficking. Bangladesh, I'm sure has problems but they are just different problem. Food, clothing styles and architecture are not superficial, neither are family and friendship bonds, etc. Besides that we also have a massive pollution problem, have some of the largest CO2 emissions on the planet per square meter on account of our incredibly successful but also ridiculously dense pig, cow and chicken factories and associated slaughterhouses and so on. Yes, Bangladesh is poor, and yes, there are issues there. But those issues have nothing to do with immigration and there is zero chance that Bangladeshi immigrants would recreate the society they left behind. Just like you and your family did not.
    - ivraatiems 1y ago
      Not to pile on, but I think part of the issue is that the GP's argument has cause and effect reversed. He believes Bangladesh is poor and unpleasant in various ways because of their culture, while in fact it runs the other way. Culture is in many ways downstream of economics, not upstream. Of course it's more complex than that in total, and it can go both ways, but that's my view.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        The resource curse, geographic location and climate are huge factors as well as those 'successful' western countries usually taking advantage of being a few decades ahead on the tech curve. That alone accounts for a huge fraction of the wealth and perceived advantages of one country over another. Bangladesh has a very rich history and was at times way ahead of the curve but the combination of various western (mostly British) influences in the region as well as a series of wars and coups have left it in shambles. But no Bangladeshi born today had any part in that, just as no Dutch person born today can take credit for where NL sits (not that there is all that much to take credit for, if anything my national pride extends as far as the waterworks and ASML but not much further than that and I'm well aware of the history of both).

ivraatiems 1y ago

You're correct that I think you're entirely wrong about how culture works, but that's not what I'm asking you about. My point is that under your rules and worldview, you should not have been allowed to come to the US, because you are from the "bad" culture. Why should an exception have been made for you? Why are you and your family special and different from everyone else in your home culture? Under your own rules, that makes no sense.

jacquesm 1y ago

> You think that if you took 10,000 people raised by Dutch mothers and had them build a city, it would turn out the same as if you took 10,000 people raised by Bangladeshi mothers. I reject that premise. Are you trying for some kind of world record in strawmen? If so this one should definitely be nominated.

rayiner 1y ago
You've cut off part of the hypo: "I think if you ran that experiment, with all else being equal, the city founded in Dutch culture would be more prosperous, better governed, less corrupt, and more orderly." So when I say "the same" in the hypo, I mean "substantively the same" modulo superficial differences like food, clothing styles, architecture, etc. Does that clarification fix the hypo for you? If not, what part of the hypo do you think is inapt?
- jacquesm 1y ago
  No, you can add whatever crap you want after that it is founded on something blatantly dishonest. And you are apparently in love with some aspects of dutch society while you ignore the fact that - just like in your country - we have a massive issue with racism, have a huge problem with drugs and drug related crime as well as with human trafficking. Bangladesh, I'm sure has problems but they are just different problem. Food, clothing styles and architecture are not superficial, neither are family and friendship bonds, etc. Besides that we also have a massive pollution problem, have some of the largest CO2 emissions on the planet per square meter on account of our incredibly successful but also ridiculously dense pig, cow and chicken factories and associated slaughterhouses and so on. Yes, Bangladesh is poor, and yes, there are issues there. But those issues have nothing to do with immigration and there is zero chance that Bangladeshi immigrants would recreate the society they left behind. Just like you and your family did not.
  - ivraatiems 1y ago
    Not to pile on, but I think part of the issue is that the GP's argument has cause and effect reversed. He believes Bangladesh is poor and unpleasant in various ways because of their culture, while in fact it runs the other way. Culture is in many ways downstream of economics, not upstream. Of course it's more complex than that in total, and it can go both ways, but that's my view.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      The resource curse, geographic location and climate are huge factors as well as those 'successful' western countries usually taking advantage of being a few decades ahead on the tech curve. That alone accounts for a huge fraction of the wealth and perceived advantages of one country over another. Bangladesh has a very rich history and was at times way ahead of the curve but the combination of various western (mostly British) influences in the region as well as a series of wars and coups have left it in shambles. But no Bangladeshi born today had any part in that, just as no Dutch person born today can take credit for where NL sits (not that there is all that much to take credit for, if anything my national pride extends as far as the waterworks and ASML but not much further than that and I'm well aware of the history of both).