3 ms·

> This is not a real choice made by citizens This is something which courts should consider more about other things, such as EULA and Terms and Conditions. Sam

by avmich 11mo ago

> This is not a real choice made by citizens This is something which courts should consider more about other things, such as EULA and Terms and Conditions. Same reasons.

MangoToupe 11mo ago
Are EULAs even enforceable?
- deafpolygon 11mo ago
  they are generally thought to be, but require litigation- which is a problem for the general population! corporations have enough money to tie you up in court with lawyers.
  - schnable 11mo ago
    People always say this, but are there any real examples of corporations extracting damages from EULA violations?
  - tialaramex 11mo ago
    It was a lot more plausible when it is likely the judge has never clicked past an EULA. Today unless you've dug up some archaic fossil the judge is perfectly familiar with this nonsense so you're in a position where the person who decides what the law is knows EULAs are bullshit nobody reads. I'd expect a situation like Somerset v Stewart. Mansfield clearly didn't want to rule you can't have slavery because that's going to be extremely disruptive to powerful people - so he suggests they settle and then the case goes away and he isn't called to say anything. But Stewart refuses to settle, apparently nobody could convince him that it's in his best interest - so, OK says Mansfield: fiat justitia, ruat cælum (Justice be done though the heavens fall). Somerset walks free. Are corporations relying on EULAs smart enough to take the L? I guess we'd see.
- Tuna-Fish 11mo ago
  In the EU, it's complicated. There is a very clear law that forbids any additional contract terms post the point of sale, so that if you go to a store, purchase a box with software in it and then go home to install it, when it pops up a dialog for you to "agree" on, you can just ignore it, nothing in that is enforceable at all. And no, small print text on the box that says you have to agree to terms in the software does not change anything. But that's not how software is sold anymore. EULAs in general are not unenforceable, so long as they are presented before the sale. This is precisely why Steam (for example) now gives you the EULA before it lets you buy anything.
  - layer8 11mo ago
    There’s still some principles that it must be proportionate and reasonably intelligible to the average person. A 100-page EULA for end-user software generally won’t be enforceable.
  - warpspin 11mo ago
    I'm not even sure you can generalize to "in the EU" here. A lot of contract law might be different between countries. So for example, in Germany, an EULA would be considered an AGB, and subject to §303 BGB and following paragraphs, which e.g. means, "surprising" clauses which you cannot reasonably expect beforehand being part of the EULA would be unenforcable or §307 BGB would make certain kinds of one-sided/lop-sided clauses unenforcable. Other EU countries might have other laws. I'm not really sure this is an area of unification, and a lot of the commonalities there is might be more due to the common heritage of Napoleon's Code Civil which underlies contract law in many european countries, instead of EU unification efforts.
naIak 11mo ago
The choice citizens would make every single time is to see the website without ads. Of course, publishers aren’t happy about that, since they would have to close shop. Maybe the EC should consider both sides of the equation.
- debugnik 11mo ago
  Advertising has existed for centuries, I'm sure it can survive as an industry without requiring invasive tracking.
- mkmk3 11mo ago
  False dichotomy, just advertise based on the content of the site without spying on people
  - naIak 11mo ago
    Loaded language, it can’t be “spying” if the user consents.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
    - iamacyborg 11mo ago
      This only really rings true if the consent is informed, I don’t believe that that is the case.
    - piltdownman 11mo ago
      The preponderance of dark UI/UX patterns in advertising and cookie consent pop-ups, as well as the grey-hat browser fingerprinting and DRM based tracking, unfortunately stand testament to exactly that. Given that ~98% of Internet users couldn't even articulate what javascript does as part of their browsing experience, the exfiltration and reassembling of their PII via meta-data into sellable profiles for targeted auctions is completely beyond their capacity to comprehend or engage with. Thus consent is de facto ungrantable.
  - 11mo ago

by avmich 11mo ago

> This is not a real choice made by citizens This is something which courts should consider more about other things, such as EULA and Terms and Conditions. Same reasons.

MangoToupe 11mo ago

Are EULAs even enforceable?

deafpolygon 11mo ago
they are generally thought to be, but require litigation- which is a problem for the general population! corporations have enough money to tie you up in court with lawyers.
- schnable 11mo ago
  People always say this, but are there any real examples of corporations extracting damages from EULA violations?
- tialaramex 11mo ago
  It was a lot more plausible when it is likely the judge has never clicked past an EULA. Today unless you've dug up some archaic fossil the judge is perfectly familiar with this nonsense so you're in a position where the person who decides what the law is knows EULAs are bullshit nobody reads. I'd expect a situation like Somerset v Stewart. Mansfield clearly didn't want to rule you can't have slavery because that's going to be extremely disruptive to powerful people - so he suggests they settle and then the case goes away and he isn't called to say anything. But Stewart refuses to settle, apparently nobody could convince him that it's in his best interest - so, OK says Mansfield: fiat justitia, ruat cælum (Justice be done though the heavens fall). Somerset walks free. Are corporations relying on EULAs smart enough to take the L? I guess we'd see.
Tuna-Fish 11mo ago
In the EU, it's complicated. There is a very clear law that forbids any additional contract terms post the point of sale, so that if you go to a store, purchase a box with software in it and then go home to install it, when it pops up a dialog for you to "agree" on, you can just ignore it, nothing in that is enforceable at all. And no, small print text on the box that says you have to agree to terms in the software does not change anything. But that's not how software is sold anymore. EULAs in general are not unenforceable, so long as they are presented before the sale. This is precisely why Steam (for example) now gives you the EULA before it lets you buy anything.
- layer8 11mo ago
  There’s still some principles that it must be proportionate and reasonably intelligible to the average person. A 100-page EULA for end-user software generally won’t be enforceable.
- warpspin 11mo ago
  I'm not even sure you can generalize to "in the EU" here. A lot of contract law might be different between countries. So for example, in Germany, an EULA would be considered an AGB, and subject to §303 BGB and following paragraphs, which e.g. means, "surprising" clauses which you cannot reasonably expect beforehand being part of the EULA would be unenforcable or §307 BGB would make certain kinds of one-sided/lop-sided clauses unenforcable. Other EU countries might have other laws. I'm not really sure this is an area of unification, and a lot of the commonalities there is might be more due to the common heritage of Napoleon's Code Civil which underlies contract law in many european countries, instead of EU unification efforts.

naIak 11mo ago

The choice citizens would make every single time is to see the website without ads. Of course, publishers aren’t happy about that, since they would have to close shop. Maybe the EC should consider both sides of the equation.

debugnik 11mo ago
Advertising has existed for centuries, I'm sure it can survive as an industry without requiring invasive tracking.
mkmk3 11mo ago
False dichotomy, just advertise based on the content of the site without spying on people
- naIak 11mo ago
  Loaded language, it can’t be “spying” if the user consents.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - iamacyborg 11mo ago
    This only really rings true if the consent is informed, I don’t believe that that is the case.
  - piltdownman 11mo ago
    The preponderance of dark UI/UX patterns in advertising and cookie consent pop-ups, as well as the grey-hat browser fingerprinting and DRM based tracking, unfortunately stand testament to exactly that. Given that ~98% of Internet users couldn't even articulate what javascript does as part of their browsing experience, the exfiltration and reassembling of their PII via meta-data into sellable profiles for targeted auctions is completely beyond their capacity to comprehend or engage with. Thus consent is de facto ungrantable.
- 11mo ago