7 ms·

You think the messaging protocol itself is causing heightened bullying?

by fastball 11mo ago

immibis 11mo ago
Messaging protocol features determine social aspects. Harder to bully someone in a group chat if there isn't a group chat.
- fastball 11mo ago
  There are dozens of ways to have a group chat. iMessage is not enabling this in any meaningful way.
  - Zak 11mo ago
    There are, but if kids are using iMessage for it and not using other things even though they could, not having iMessage can serve to insulate a kid from it. Parental controls may prevent some of the kids from installing third-party messaging apps, or maybe they're just unwilling to. There are a weird number of adults in my social circle who I can't convince to do so, though I'd imagine kids to be a little more flexible.
- prmoustache 11mo ago
  Kids in most european countries use whatsapp even though they are under the minimum age. Ban an app, another appear. Ban all apps and they would join any of the services that provide a web frontend. Kids in the late 90's/early 2000 were using IRC when ICQ and MSN messenger didn't support group chat, usually from a web client before they were introduced to mirc and other irc clients. Bottom line: they would find a way.
  - immibis 11mo ago
    Yes. That's also part of the technical experience that also changes the resulting social landscape. I used to think "what's the point of banning something if people can get it anyway" but after seeing how cannabis became hyper-commercialized in the USA, I see that both the ban and evasion are just part of the game. (Which nobody should get prison for)
semi-extrinsic 11mo ago
Not the protocol, the group chat UX. iMessage gives kids easy access to a place where they can create groups, name them, invite and kick out other kids at will, and send messages + audio/video. It's minimally different from Snap or Discord - except that those actually have parental controls, and there is no easy way to disable iMessage group chats. The equivalent is simply lacking from Android due to RCS group chat being a broken mess.
- c0balt 11mo ago
  I'm surprised you seem to presume that WhatsApp, Discord etc. wouldn't immediately fill the gap. At least in Berlin (School and Uni) my experience was that WhatsApp was far more prevalent already (due to more mixed Android/iOS environment likely).
  - projektfu 11mo ago
    If all the "mean girls" are on iMessage, then being on Android is insulating.
    - mring33621 11mo ago
      yes. Android is "broke broke", so the cool kids won't use it Src: my 12 yo daughter
- tom_alexander 11mo ago
  > create groups, name them, invite and kick out other kids at will, and send messages + audio/video. All of that has been (and still is) available on everyone's phones since the dawn of time except for "name them": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service - create group: send an MMS message to whoever you want in the "group". Now you have a group chat. - invite people: send a new MMS message including all past participants and the one additional participant. - kick them out: Send a new MMS message including all past participants except for the person you want to remove. - send messages + audio/video: MMS supports all of this.
patja 11mo ago
I have experience where my child with a working android phone was socially excluded by the girls with hand-me-down Apple products because she couldn't "text" with them. Most of them didn't even have working cell service, just iMessage over wifi.
- HDThoreaun 11mo ago
  SMS is legitimately a trash protocol. I don’t text people without iMessage either. Either they get signal or we don’t communicate.
  - mrguyorama 11mo ago
    You know this is because apple intentionally makes their SMS shitty right? I was able to send full fat (640x480 at the time) videos to people over SMS in 2008 using a flip phone. I was able to do group chats and share photos and all sorts of nice things. I could do all that in android land as well over SMS with other android users, before RCS. It's only when my iPhone having family members attempt to send me multimedia texts that things don't freaking work. My dad's new wife tried to send me pictures of their wedding and Apple reduced them to a hundred pixels because fuck you.
    - HDThoreaun 11mo ago
      Partly yes its apples fault. Im too bought into their ecosystem to switch though. Either way my biggest problem with SMS is the 5+ second delay that I always seem to have. Impossible to have a conversation like that.
    - jandrewrogers 11mo ago
      SMS is shitty because it is unreliable and always has been because the carriers proxy it. It delivers late or not at all at rate beyond what is usable for anything important. Some of this blame can be placed on carriers but they don’t care.
    - acdha 11mo ago
      SMS is terrible because it’s always been terrible, and carriers didn’t care. You can blame Apple for not making iMessage open but it’s just absurd to claim that SMS was ever good to an audience of people who’ve used it. RCS isn’t perfect but it fixed so many problems which SMS had back before the iPhone even launched.

You think the messaging protocol itself is causing heightened bullying?

Messaging protocol features determine social aspects. Harder to bully someone in a group chat if there isn't a group chat.

fastball 11mo ago
There are dozens of ways to have a group chat. iMessage is not enabling this in any meaningful way.
- Zak 11mo ago
  There are, but if kids are using iMessage for it and not using other things even though they could, not having iMessage can serve to insulate a kid from it. Parental controls may prevent some of the kids from installing third-party messaging apps, or maybe they're just unwilling to. There are a weird number of adults in my social circle who I can't convince to do so, though I'd imagine kids to be a little more flexible.
prmoustache 11mo ago
Kids in most european countries use whatsapp even though they are under the minimum age. Ban an app, another appear. Ban all apps and they would join any of the services that provide a web frontend. Kids in the late 90's/early 2000 were using IRC when ICQ and MSN messenger didn't support group chat, usually from a web client before they were introduced to mirc and other irc clients. Bottom line: they would find a way.
- immibis 11mo ago
  Yes. That's also part of the technical experience that also changes the resulting social landscape. I used to think "what's the point of banning something if people can get it anyway" but after seeing how cannabis became hyper-commercialized in the USA, I see that both the ban and evasion are just part of the game. (Which nobody should get prison for)

semi-extrinsic 11mo ago

Not the protocol, the group chat UX. iMessage gives kids easy access to a place where they can create groups, name them, invite and kick out other kids at will, and send messages + audio/video. It's minimally different from Snap or Discord - except that those actually have parental controls, and there is no easy way to disable iMessage group chats. The equivalent is simply lacking from Android due to RCS group chat being a broken mess.

c0balt 11mo ago
I'm surprised you seem to presume that WhatsApp, Discord etc. wouldn't immediately fill the gap. At least in Berlin (School and Uni) my experience was that WhatsApp was far more prevalent already (due to more mixed Android/iOS environment likely).
- projektfu 11mo ago
  If all the "mean girls" are on iMessage, then being on Android is insulating.
  - mring33621 11mo ago
    yes. Android is "broke broke", so the cool kids won't use it Src: my 12 yo daughter
tom_alexander 11mo ago
> create groups, name them, invite and kick out other kids at will, and send messages + audio/video. All of that has been (and still is) available on everyone's phones since the dawn of time except for "name them": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service - create group: send an MMS message to whoever you want in the "group". Now you have a group chat. - invite people: send a new MMS message including all past participants and the one additional participant. - kick them out: Send a new MMS message including all past participants except for the person you want to remove. - send messages + audio/video: MMS supports all of this.

patja 11mo ago

I have experience where my child with a working android phone was socially excluded by the girls with hand-me-down Apple products because she couldn't "text" with them. Most of them didn't even have working cell service, just iMessage over wifi.

HDThoreaun 11mo ago
SMS is legitimately a trash protocol. I don’t text people without iMessage either. Either they get signal or we don’t communicate.
- mrguyorama 11mo ago
  You know this is because apple intentionally makes their SMS shitty right? I was able to send full fat (640x480 at the time) videos to people over SMS in 2008 using a flip phone. I was able to do group chats and share photos and all sorts of nice things. I could do all that in android land as well over SMS with other android users, before RCS. It's only when my iPhone having family members attempt to send me multimedia texts that things don't freaking work. My dad's new wife tried to send me pictures of their wedding and Apple reduced them to a hundred pixels because fuck you.
  - HDThoreaun 11mo ago
    Partly yes its apples fault. Im too bought into their ecosystem to switch though. Either way my biggest problem with SMS is the 5+ second delay that I always seem to have. Impossible to have a conversation like that.
  - jandrewrogers 11mo ago
    SMS is shitty because it is unreliable and always has been because the carriers proxy it. It delivers late or not at all at rate beyond what is usable for anything important. Some of this blame can be placed on carriers but they don’t care.
  - acdha 11mo ago
    SMS is terrible because it’s always been terrible, and carriers didn’t care. You can blame Apple for not making iMessage open but it’s just absurd to claim that SMS was ever good to an audience of people who’ve used it. RCS isn’t perfect but it fixed so many problems which SMS had back before the iPhone even launched.